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Re: The Mode B tradition
by G0MRF＠aol.com 15 Sep '06

15 Sep '06

In a message dated 9/14/2006 10:39:26 PM GMT Standard Time, bill(a)hsmicrowave.com writes: Hi David, Help me out with the 100,000 single point failures. Are you referring to the complexity of digital gates etc., in the DSP. Isn't P3E going with a digital IF or are they using an analog backup or vice versa? That's the SDX thingy isn't it? Regards...Bill - N6GHz Hello Bruce / Dom. I agree, the UV on Eagle will be apparently analog (ue) to the casual user. But be aware Bruce that it's not "primarily" a software driven transponder. It is in fact TOTALLY software driven. There is no linear IF, just DSP in the core. Or from another viewpoint 100,000 single point failures just waiting to happen. 73 David G0MRF Hello Bill. As I understand it, and perhaps I'm being a little over conservative in my concern, The Eagle design has shifted with respect to the caution of engineering that was shown just 14 months ago. My reference to 100,000 single point failures just waiting to happen was aimed at the UV SDX transponders total reliance on some very impressive but completely untried in space digital electronics. From the various messages on the BB in the past 2 weeks I understand that the line up of the transponder is: U band receiver to 10.7MHz - DSP based core processing the signal at baseband - Then an upconversion process that goes to 10.7MHz then 145MHz. This would appear to place the DSP it's software and its control electronics within a critical path which has large potential for a single failure. For example if one of the junctions in the DSP is 'hit', then the transponder stops working. - There is no plan B. OK, Yes it will be radiation tested, but as I pointed out in a previous mail, it will be launched at the peak of the sunspot cycle and orbital manouvers can go wrong leaving the satellite in the wrong part of the Van Allen belts. Let's look at our own history: AO-10 was placed in a high radiation environment and within a short period the IHU died. However, the RF components in the transponder continued to function and the satellite provided a limited service. Why did it continue to function? Well, I can only guess. But how about the possibility that RF devices with large junctions are less vunerable to radiation than sub 1 micron devices in LSI logic. In AO-7, the RF components are still working 20 years on. I have suggested that a simple signal path be designed around the SDX core. Signals appear to exist at 10.7MHz and adding just a few extra components would allow a malfunctioning SDX to be bypassed. What is really curious is that these fears have been voiced before and reassurances were given by Rick W2GPS. However for some reason, what seems to be a prudent, inexpensive and simple option has been dropped in favour of increased trust in radiation testing or by providing an equally vunerable duplicate DSP unit. Please see original question asked by Drew KO4MA with reply from W2GPS dated July 2005. ============================================================== Drew, See the Eagle specification document at _http://www.amsat.org/amsat-new/eagle/Eagle_Fall_2004.php_ (http://www.amsat.org/amsat-new/eagle/Eagle_Fall_2004.php) It says "To provide a safe backup system in case of a failure in the digital implementation of the linear transponders there will be two S-Band transmitters and either of them will be capable of being driven by the SDR driver or by a traditional analog linear driver. One or more of the receivers will also be capable of analog operation." Rick W2GPS AMSAT LM 2232 -----Original Message----- From: owner-Eagle(a)AMSAT.Org [_mailto:[email protected]_ (mailto:[email protected]) ] On Behalf Of Andrew Glasbrenner Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 7:45 PM To: Robert McGwier; Amsat-Bb Cc: Jim Sanford Subject: [eagle] Re: [amsat-bb] LONG and long overdue report Hi Bob, Thank you very much for the update on the Eagle transponder progress. The SDR based transponders sound very cutting edge and extremely adaptible to AMSAT's needs. I very much look forward to hearing them at the symposium in a few months. I'll have my satellite backpack station that was used for the Dayton demos, and will be glad to offer it up for demonstrating the new transponders. CC Rider is also very exciting and sure to open new realms of small stations and portable operation. As someone primarily looking in from a user/member point of view I would like to offer two comments. First, I'd hate to think we are going to hang our entire mission on just the SDR transponders. Wouldn't it be prudent to include at least a bare bones analog backup transponder? Please tell me this is the plan. Second, I'd like to encourage that software development not lag too far behind the hardware. I'm not a big fan of the idea of writing the code once it's in orbit. One does not have to look too far to find where AMSAT has oversold or overpromised features based on writing the software after launch. Please take these comments in the spirit with which they were offered, with only my desire to see Eagle as succesful as possible. 73 and thanks for your efforts, Drew KO4MA AMSAT #33438

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End of the thread
by Keith Bainbridge 15 Sep '06

15 Sep '06

Frank , I agree, I forgot to mention in my post I was refering to modes U/s and L/S of course. It was great working Brazil with a 1 degree inclination and a 4 minute window to give me WAC on Ao-40, incl antarctica. I cant even work South America on HF from Western Australia, well its damned difficult ! Hopefully we can repeat the fun on P3E, it's contacts in the log that count not which exotic mode was used as far as I'm concerned. See you on P3E one of these days 73 Keith -- Keith Bainbridge VK6XH & VK6DXR Vice-President Northern Corridor Radio Group ( VK6ANC ) Amsat NA 35338 TenTec Omni VI, FlexRadio SDR 1000 , 5 Band Spiderbeam. Wireless Institute of Australia Previous calls include VK6DXC, VK6BRK,G6HHV, G0HEI & G1GHZ You're just jealous 'cos the voices only speak to me......... http:/www.qrz.com/vk6xh

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Re: The Eagle has died, my original point.
by Tony Langdon (ATC) 15 Sep '06

15 Sep '06

> already have. There are no other options for me, living in Western > Australia, Leo's are a complete waste of time and money, I > can talk to Hey, it's not much better on the eastern side! I've largely gone quiet on the sats for the time being, but I would like to have a crack at one of the HEO birds when they go up. U/V, I could probably manage now, though I need to sort out the uplink. S band downlink would be possible with a bit of work (been there, covered that issue). Higher bands at this stage are probably prohibitively expensive. Now, I have the luxury of being able to plant a satellite array in the middle of the back yard! :-) Time to use it might be more of a challenge though. ;)

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Not hearing S-band on AO-51
by Michael Tondee 15 Sep '06

15 Sep '06

I've been trying to get a handle on my S-band receiving setup for a couple of months now. It seems when the bird has been in V-S mode that I've had one problem or another that hasn't allowed me to test it. I don't have an L-band antenna up at the moment so I thought I would at least listen to some passes the past couple of evenings to see how my receive would work. I have a AIDC 3731 downconverter and a small BBQ-grill dish on my Az/El rotator system. The IF of the downconverter is at 123 Mhz. I built another converter that was featued in the AMSAT Journal awhile back. The purpose of this converter is to further reduce the 123 Mhz output to 6 meters where I can feed it into my TS-2000X. Unfortunately I haven't heard anything with this setup. I've had some near overhead passes and once my dish gets above about 30 degrees or so it is pointing at clear sky. I thought maybe my homebrew converter was to blame so I dug up an HT that will receive directly on 123 Mhz. Still nothing. I can hear the noise level increase and decrease if I cut power on and off to the downconverter so I assume it's working. Could I be wrong in that assumption? The other thing is that it's been kind of rainy and overcast here the past couple of evenings. Would this affect my reception? I don't know what I should be trying here. It's pretty new to me. I know a BBQ grill dish isn't the best antenna but it seems to me it should work ok considering people hear the bird with this same downconverter and a small corner reflector plus an HT. Any ideas or suggestions out there? TNX and 73, Michael, W4HIJ AMSAT # 36017

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Mode S on AO-40
by Frank A Cahoy 14 Sep '06

14 Sep '06

Sorry Keith, but I must add a bit more gasoline to the fire. Count me absolutely as one of the "operators". My experiences on AO-40 were the most gratifying as a true blue DXer like nothing I've ever encountered on HF. (My alltime HF DXCC total is 364 worked/confirmed.) I worked 93 entities and nearly a 1000 unique callsigns via this bird. My first real time using an HEO. I'd been on AO-10 (Mode B) but it was, toward the end of its life, a hit and miss situation. My favorite DX QSO via AO-40 was with VK9CD. We both had no more than three degrees of elevation and I had to find a "hole" in my neighbor's trees accross the street to do it. The point is I have a QSL card to prove it. I live in a "rural" area, I suppose. Our town is small (1700 pop.) but crap and corruption on the downlink was NEVER a concern for me. Speaking from a purely operators point of view put Mode S back into the game plan. I hope and pray that P3E will soon be up so that this old DXer doesn't go completely stir crazy. 73 to all. Frank, K0BLT

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TAPR DSP56002 EVM FS/Trade
by Mike Lewis 14 Sep '06

14 Sep '06

Hi All: I've got a TAPR DSP56002EVM / Radio Interface that is now excess to my needs. If anyone is interested in a purchase or trade contact me off list. Thanks, Mike K4MPL

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The Eagle has died.
by Keith Bainbridge 14 Sep '06

14 Sep '06

It's a terrible shame that Amsat has choosen not to continue Mode S on Eagle. I for one will no longer send my hard earned cash as a donation to Eagle or Amsat NA,but to Amsat DL as I'm sure many others will do. The expression "Don't bite the hand that feeds you " comes to mind. I have a full Mode L / S setup here sitting waiting unused since the day AO 40 died, what use are LEO's in Western Australia. Sorry Amsat NA but I wont be renewing my membership next time without mode S. 73 Keiith -- Keith Bainbridge VK6XH & VK6DXR Vice-President Northern Corridor Radio Group ( VK6ANC ) Amsat NA 35338 TenTec Omni VI, FlexRadio SDR 1000 , 5 Band Spiderbeam. Wireless Institute of Australia Previous calls include VK6DXC, VK6BRK,G6HHV, G0HEI & G1GHZ You're just jealous 'cos the voices only speak to me......... http:/www.qrz.com/vk6xh

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AO-51 help Bob
by w7lrd＠comcast.net 14 Sep '06

14 Sep '06

Greetings to any and all L'ers. three passes over the US tonight at 0130Z E.Coast, 0300Z Mid West, 0440Z Left coast. Help Bob get some contacts on L/S. I'm still working out the bugs. 73 Bob W7LRD Seattle

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IMPORTANT - Symposium spouse tours
by Emily Clarke 14 Sep '06

14 Sep '06

I wanted to make one more announcement about Symposium group tours for wives/husbands who will not be attending the Symposium. Currently we don't have very many signed up for the tours. We have approximately 5 days to arrange for a tour, and the current level of interest doesn't warrant a private tour from the hotel. However if you or your spouse does want to sign up please do so in the next 5 days at: http://www.amsat.org/amsat-new/symposium/2006GroupTours.php If we are unable to get enough people to arrange a tour there are still other options though the hotel. It would require taking an early (6:45am) shuttle to the Crowne Plaza at the Airport. 73, Emily --------------------------------- N1DID formerly W0EEC - CM87tm Support Project OSCAR - http://www.projectoscar.net

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L'ers equipment
by w7lrd＠comcast.net 14 Sep '06

14 Sep '06

Hello I would like an informal survey regarding what you are using for Mode L. I am working on my system and do not want reinvent the wheel. The format of radio-power-transmission line-antenna/gain. I use a IC-1271A-10 watts-50 feet LMR400-12T helix about 12 db gain (or so). I need to improve my system and as usual your advice is invauable. Perhaps several on the list could benifit from this. The current AO-51 in L/S is an excellent chance to fine tune my system. 73 Bob W7LRD Seattle

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hardline
by w7lrd＠comcast.net 14 Sep '06

14 Sep '06

Hello I have some hardline all I can find on it is GCC AL500P. Does anyone know what I have? 73 Bob W7LRD Seattle

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CQ magazine, September 2006 sat article
by Diane Bruce 13 Sep '06

13 Sep '06

Hi, Our very own Drew, KO4MA appears in the article on page 55 of September 2006 CQ magazine. "Discover Ham Satellites with a Cheap Yagi" by Kent Britain, WA5VJB. He also has a very simple diplexer that you can build yourself. Very nice! I don't normally read CQ magazine but I happened to see this. Good work by all! - 73 Diane VA3DB (Amsat area coordinator) -- - db(a)db.net http://www.db.net/~db

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Re: L'ers equipment
by Edward R. Cole 13 Sep '06

13 Sep '06

At 04:51 PM 9/12/2006 +0000, w7lrd(a)comcast.net wrote: > >Hello >I would like an informal survey regarding what you are using for Mode L. I am working on my system and do not want reinvent the wheel. The format of radio-power-transmission line-antenna/gain. I use a IC-1271A-10 watts-50 feet LMR400-12T helix about 12 db gain (or so). I need to improve my system and as usual your advice is invauable. Perhaps several on the list could benifit from this. The current AO-51 in L/S is an excellent chance to fine tune my system. >73 Bob W7LRD >Seattle Bob, Your feedline loss is 2.4 dB so that approx. 5.8 w are getting to the helix. Your ERP is slightly below 100w. That would be very low if this were AO-40. I ran 10w at antenna with 20-dBi gain for ERP 0f 1000w for AO-40 amd way marginal (one s-unit above noise floor). I have no info re: AO-51, so will have to wait for that. 73's Ed PS: When I get tower back up, I will be able to run 20w to two lloop-yagis 23-dBi for ERP of ~4000w! 73's, Ed - KL7UW ========================================= http://www.qsl.net/al7eb - BP40iq 144-EME: FT-847, mgf-1801/1402, 4xM2-xpol-20, 170w 432-EME: FT-847, mgf-1402, 1x21-ele (18.6 dBi), 60w =========================================

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S-Band and Eagle
by ANTHONY JAPHA 13 Sep '06

13 Sep '06

There have been so many thoughtful comments on the S band question that it's been fun to follow the thread. I'd like to chime in. I bought S band gear just before AO40 went south. Not a lot of equipment, just a W7LRD dish with helix, a K5GNA converter, and a few odds and ends. Unfortunately, I never got to put them on the air. Now I try out the converter on AO-51when the mode is right. I live in Manhattan, operate portable, and have a fairly decent QTH to get maybe a 100 degree window. Mode V/U on AO-51 is a breeze with an HT, and FO-29 provides the occasional DX QSO using a pair of FT817s and an old 20 watt 2 mtr. amp. S-band here is nearly hopeless. I live in a census tract that contains 10 city blocks. There are 15,000 people in 9,000 households. I would not be surprised to find that 75% of those households had some sort of 2.4 Ghz device! The bird can be directly overhead, but only the rare station pops up out of the noise for a few syllables at a time. Using an Arrow ant. for 435 Mhz., by contrast, much is heard on both FO-29 and AO-51. That is my experience. It is an anecdote, to be added to the many others that have been shared. I would be shocked if a satellite designer paid much attention to it if he had some more aggregate data on which to base a design decision. It's a shred of evidence, no more, no less. Even a cub reporter shouldn't write about it without doing some research into what others are experiencing and whether my experience squares with what informed people and the data suggest. For one thing, my QTH probably isn't typical, to say the least. The designers of Eagle probably aren't hung up on making sure that users in my position should be able to use all the bird's modes. They probably don't design for the superstations either. The job is to make the bird useful to the greatest number of possible users given the budgets they face (money, power, size, etc.). The evidence I've seen in these exchanges seems to favor the designers by a large margin. They have cited their evaluation of the available data regarding the present and future use of S band. Are there data to the contrary? The fact that some stations can make it through a tough QRM situation isn't very convincing. It is the great majority of stations that should be able to use the bird. I have a couple of concerns. Is the emphasis on making the bird accessible to very modestly equipped stations (like mine?!) going too far? The bird's potential use in emergencies sounds farfetched to me. Maybe if we're down to a choice between the bird and a semaphore! I'd also like to know much more about the ground equipment required for S/C mode. How will it interface with existing equipment in the shack? Are these new pieces of gear add-ons to existing transceivers or do they stand alone? What functions to they perform? Sorry, but I'm not up on digital SSB and CW as you can see. Finally, is enough known about U/V to tell us now what ERP and receive capability will be needed? That is, how big will the antennas need to be? Thanks for all the work being put into this by the design team. If Eagle is going to fly any time soon, we've got to let them get on with it. 73, Tony, N2UN LM 183

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DXpedition
by Reicher, James 13 Sep '06

13 Sep '06

I got this through another reflector. It looks like there will be satellite operations, courtesy of Rafael, XE1GRR 73 de N8AU, Jim in Raymore, MO __________________________________________ Dear OM, you may already be aware of the DXpediton to Revillagigedo we are planning in the time frame of Oct 16 to Nov 3, 2006. Except weather conditions like Hurricanes or other limitations out of our control might cause changes of that time schedule we expect to operate for about 2 weeks under the call XF4DL from Socorro Island (IOTA NA-030) and - at the end of the operation - for several hours under the call XF4K from Clarion (IOTA NA-115). The German participants are DF7TH, DJ5IW, DK2WV, DL1YFF, DL3DXX and me, DL8LE. All participants have a solid background of several successful dxpeditions. The Mexican participants are XE2K, XE1GRR, XE1AY, XE1HBU, XE1FRF, XE1UN, XE1FXM, XE1MMB, XE1XFX and XE1FXZ of which the majority has a high level of expertise on IOTA operations in general and four were active from XF4 before between two and four times. We are planning to operate with up to 5 stations with 3 of those 5 for 24 hours/day. Equipment to be used is mainly ICOM and YAESU for transceivers, ALPHA 99 for amplifiers plus two FL2100B and transistor amps as spare. Antennas to be installed are Titanex Verticals for the low-bands, Spider-Beams and Cushcraft A3S as well as Phased Arrays for all others. K9AY loops and / or beverages are planned as low-band receiving antennas. Besides our low-band activity the main focus will be on RTTY (digital modes) and WARC bands. The planned operation site near the air strip will be optimum for North- and South - America, Europe and Japan and will provide an excellent chance to have a XF4-qso for low and medium power stations as well as compensate the difficult propagation a little bit which is affected by the present low SSN. QSL'ing will be done via N6AWD for North-America, DL9NDS for the rest of the world. Direct inquiries will be sent directly if SASE and sufficient funds to cover the postage will be provided. All others, i.e bureau cards as well as e-mail requests, will be sent via bureau, including those arrived without adequate funds. As of today the landing and transportation permit of the Mexican Navy has already been sent to us (departure date from Manzanillo will be either Oct 14 or 15, 2006). The COFETEL has already assigned the calls XF4DL and XF4K, the permits of the environmental agency and the immigration authority are ok as well. To cover the high costs of nearly 10.000 USD for this operation in addition to the air fares of the participants, air freight fees and the equipment we have to buy we are depending on the donation of clubs, companies, organisations and private persons like you and yours. Therefore we would be very glad if you could review the possibility to support our activity. If you could decide to do so we would put your logo on our web site www.xf4dl.xedx.org as well as on the XF4DL qsl. Due to the large number of qso's we expect because of the planned duration of the operation an equivalent large number of qsl's are planned to be distributed. We would be very glad about a positive response. If you have any questions please respond via e-mail to dl8le(a)darc.de as well as jsturhahn(a)vogt-electronic.com , or just phone +49 8591 937110 (office) or +49 8546 973783 (home). 73 and thanks for reading! Juergen Sturhahn, DL8LE Manager XF4DL Neuhofen 3 94575 Windorf Germany --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by the mail server]

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Re: PCSAT2 Special Ops on 12 Sept
by Armour, Randy (ITS) 13 Sep '06

13 Sep '06

Is PCSAT2 off until removal from the ISS? Understanding that it must be silent during EVA, I was wondering if it might be turned on for a while after EVA #2. Randy - KI4LMR -----Original Message----- From: amsat-bb-bounces(a)amsat.org [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Robert Bruninga Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 8:51 PM To: amsat-bb(a)amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] PCSAT2 Special Ops on 12 Sept PCSAT2 on ISS continues to operate its FM voice downlink on 437.975 on most passes during waking hours. Since the Shuttle has been delayed for several days, and passes are 20+ minutes earlier each day, this results in passes during the Naval Academy's morning classroom hours in the USA area next week. For EASTERN USA stations, we want to make a special FM voice contact with other schools. The 0903 EDT and 1036 EDT passes on Tuesday the 12th will occur during our students satellite lab period and we hope to contact other schools or VIP ARISS stations. If you want to set up a station during that class time, let us know so we can coordinate. Thanks, WB4APR, Bob USNA Satellite Lab _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb

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Re: AO-51 Mode L/S.
by Dave G1OCN 13 Sep '06

13 Sep '06

Hi Clare. Thank you for your reply. The pass was fine but no other takers. It was good to give the new WIMO 4 x 9 turn helix a whirl at such low elevation, (3degrees) Next job is to change the BBQ dish vertical to a 19 turn helix, to get over the fading. Sept the 16th is a possible, but it's my only day off, so might have to be out doing other things, but the late one on the 17th is a much better one for me. We have worked before, on the 27th May at 2235 UTC on AO-51. My place of work is GB1CPB on QRZ.COM. I do get on to a few sat passes from there if I don't have any visitors at the time of the pass. Perhaps chat on the 17th. Cheers, Dave. AMSAT 5766 cc AMSAT BB

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(no subject)
by Colorbinsmith＠wmconnect.com 13 Sep '06

13 Sep '06

unscribe

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Symposium Rooms - Block Size Increased
by Emily Clarke 13 Sep '06

13 Sep '06

I have spoken to the director of Sales for the Crowne Plaza and they have increased our allocation of rooms. If you haven't been able to book a room everything should work OK now. Please let me know if you run into any difficulty. 73, Emily --------------------------------- N1DID formerly W0EEC - CM87tm Support Project OSCAR - http://www.projectoscar.net

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sale
by gerry 13 Sep '06

13 Sep '06

I have for sale a PacComm TNC DFM Modem and Psk-1 and switch box. The switch box is presently setup for a Yaesu 736 transceiver. The unit is being offered here, If not sold will list on E-Bay. contact me of list for any further information at ve4gtb(a)mts.net 73 Gerry VE4GTB Amsat #29196 Area Coordinator Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada www.ve4gtb.com

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Fw: 3400-3410
by i8cvs 12 Sep '06

12 Sep '06

Hi Bob, N4HY My answere sent to you at rwmcgwier(a)comcast.net bounced back so I am forced to resend it via BB as well 73" de i8CVS Domenico ----- Original Message ----- From: "i8cvs" <domenico.i8cvs(a)tin.it> To: "Robert McGwier" <rwmcgwier(a)comcast.net> Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 12:29 AM Subject: Re: 3400-3410 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert McGwier" <rwmcgwier(a)comcast.net> > To: "i8cvs" <domenico.i8cvs(a)tin.it> > Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 11:02 PM > Subject: 3400-3410 > > > Dom: > > > > What is the current status for 3400-3410 in Italy? Can you use it as a > > earth to space band? > > > > Bob > > Hi Bob > > Unfortunately in Italy 3400-3410 MHz cannot be used at all by radioamateurs > because 3400-3600 MHz is for military radiolocation and military earth to > space service. > > You can dowload the IARU bandplan allowed in Italy at > > http://www.ari.it/vhf/bandplan.pdf > > and you will see that the above band is clipped. > > By the way in a previous message this morning in BB you writes : > > "The P3E team would like to include the SDX and we all think we could get > a great Mode B transponder out of this." > > I woul like to know from you if for B transponder on P3E I can use my > old home made CW/SSB TX/RX as used for OSCAR-13 with no DSP > at all or if I have to switch to something new. > > Please let me know. > > TNX and 73" de > > i8CVS Domenico > > >

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AO-51 Mode L/S.
by Dave G1OCN 12 Sep '06

12 Sep '06

Anyone for a go across the pond at 2248 UTC ? Cheers, Dave. Portland. Dorset. IO80SM

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Re: 50 MHz (was S band and Eagle: an appeal for a higherleveldiscussion)
by Tom Clark, K3IO 12 Sep '06

12 Sep '06

Trevor, M5AKA asked > What are peoples views on trying to get an Amateur Satellite Service allocation > at 50-51 MHz ? On time scales of 10 years (i.e. soon enough to be applicable to any of the ongoing decisions), IMHO the chances are somewhere between "microscopically slim" and "no way in hell". Any change like this has to be proposed to the ITU (usually by the IARU) by some national delegation (BTW -- the head of delegation has Ambassadorial status) at a WRC. If the proposal isn't laughed out of the house instantly, it will be referred to the ITU's Study Groups for presentation at a subsequent WRC. Then the topic might be placed in front of the ITU, where it it might be adopted. The ITU's recommendations must then be ratified as a treaty by the nations involved. Here in the USA, it is offered up by the President (if he/she cares) to be ratified by the Senate (a political process that hasn't been going too swiftly on this side of the pond -- witness Kyoto). To squeeze out spectrum for Galileo (& the other proposed new GNSS systems) -- which involves gigaEuro financial issues -- took at least 3 WRC cycles (if I count right) -- i.e. 10++ years. BTW -- Since we'd have to have the first fight just in the IARU in order to have the chance of getting the ideas considered by the ITU/WRC cycle, the initial fight would be 6M vs more world-wide 40M spectrum; and I note that the IARU has a heavy pro-HF bias. Personally, if we were going to fight a battle, I'd rather see us fight for an S2 = 3400-3410 MHz allocation in R1. 73, Tom

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S band and Eagle: an appeal for a higher level discussion
by Bruce Robertson 12 Sep '06

12 Sep '06

There has been a recent restatement of disappointment regarding the Eagle design committee's recent choice to use S band as an uplink not a downlink. Note that the next two HEO's scheduled to launch *will* have S band downlinks, so there's no worry that people like I, who live in radio quiet areas, will be unable to use our developing S band equipment in the future. As I understand it, the Eagle design team have used standard predictions of 801.11 usage to determine mathematically that by the time of launch the radio environment will simply not support reliable communications. I cannot imagine that they like these conclusions. Implementing new bands entails new risks, after all. But numbers don't lie (or shouldn't), and it would be a horrible disservice to all of us if they designed and launched a bird that was effectively mute at launch. The design team have said again and again on this list that they would welcome contradicting evidence that is cogent, and I, for one, believe them. They're our volunteers, and they deserve our support. I can't provide that contradicting evidence: I'm not skilled or qualified. But I can assess an argument, and the responses so far have not been nearly as rigorous. They have amounted to "works for me", which I think misses the point. Please, please, those of you who are qualified and competent and hold the opposing opinion, take the design committee at their word and assess their work, check their assumptions, present cogent opposing arguments. There is some thought that a dish antenna properly implemented will overcome the obstacles described by the design team. Let's model this. Or those who live in heavy 802.11b environments, do some experiements with terrestrial links (which I suppose could be assumed worse than earth/sky). Who knows? Maybe it's all like my last tax return, where a missed decimal point made me think I'd have to take out a second mortgage to pay our taxes :-) This list and the wiki exist so that we can undertake that sort of dialogue, and for my part, it is my favorite part of participation in AMSAT. Some have suggested that Eagle fly with an S-band downlink on the off chance that it *does* work despite the theory; others, that we survey the members to see what they'd like. I fully support the design teams rejection of the former approach. Launch weight is very expensive and the kitchen sink approach is not to my mind sensible. As to the latter, a survey presumably pertains only to *working* bands, not ones that are polluted out of existance. It's human nature for us more readily to see our misfortunes as caused by the malace of others, but I think we should strongly avoid terms like "bait and switch". We'll get much further if we all assume the goodwill of everyone involved. 73, Bruce VE9QRP

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Re: Planning for the future, downconverter options
by jules＠g0nzo.co.uk 12 Sep '06

12 Sep '06

Micheal, You can use it right now on AO51 ! Jules ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Tondee" <mat_62(a)netcommander.com> To: "Vince Fiscus, KB7ADL" <vlfiscus(a)mcn.net> Cc: <amsat-bb(a)amsat.org> Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 10:33 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Planning for the future, downconverter options. > At the rate things seem to be going. I would avoid planning anything > for the future until the designers figure out exactly what it is they want. > I planned for the future a year ago and bought a dish and AIDC 3731 for > S band. Now according to the "experts", it's going to be useless in a > short while! > 73, > Michael, W4HIJ > AMsat # 36017 Hi Michael, W4HIJ You can use the actual S-band setup when P3E will be in orbit. Read please http://www.amsat-dl.org/pic/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_i temId=6497 A 5.6 MB long pdf file about P3E 73" de i8CVS Domenico

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Re: SDX transponder timing delay measurements?
by Tom Clark, K3IO 12 Sep '06

12 Sep '06

Ken wrote: >> As a design goal, it would be helpful to the >> OD process if the delay could be made consistent >> within about +/-5 micro-sec -- i.e., 1500 meters >> (smaller is better). It is also important to >> quantify the standard deviation to that bias is >> since that is also factored into the OD process. Let me chime in since this is one of my specialty areas. It has been my hope/plan that the delays will be very accurately calibrated, and that we will have "certified" ground stations that are also well calibrated. I've been pushing to have ALL local oscillators on EAGLE and all timing clocks (remember that the 100-200 kb/s sampling clock is yet one more LO in the system) derived from a single, high stability clock. In addition to ranging, it is my hope that we can have an amateur, global time synchronization capability at the usec level. When (occasionally) it is time to do the ranging task, it might be necessary to swap in a different, optimized software into the SDX -- this would be my backup just in case the delay is not deterministic when normal SDX is running. Even if the delays are not as accurately determined as I hope, I see no reason that they will not be stable over times of minutes. With this being true, then we can do very accurate DIFFERENTIAL delays using N "certified" ground stations. If you do this at ~20,000 km range with stations ~1 earth radii, the difference observable only suffers from a factor ~3 degradation. Every ground station pair you add (the number of pairs M increases with the number of stations N as M=(N)*(N-1)/2) gives a statistical improvement of of sqrt(M-1); hence the geometrical loss from using a differenced observable is easily made up on the ground. 73, Tom

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SDX transponder timing delay measurements?
by Douglas Quagliana 12 Sep '06

12 Sep '06

I know the design isn't even done yet, but has anyone ever measured the time delay of an RF signal *through* the (demo) version of SDX? That is, how much time would it take for the signal to go from the receiver's antenna through all the electronics, and out the transmitter's antenna? Can someone put this on "the plan" so that it's measured before launch? Douglas KA2UPW/5

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Crowne Plaza Reservations
by Emily Clarke 12 Sep '06

12 Sep '06

It looks like the Crowne Plaza has run out of rooms for the core period (6th, 7th and 8th) of the Symposium in our block, however we are working with them to see if we can increase the block size. It may or may not be possible as they indicated are nearing capacity. To assist you in finding suitable accommodations nearby (hopefully within walking distance) we have contacted other hotels in the area. There are plenty of rooms available and we are negotiating a group rate with one of them. I will provide additional information to you as soon as is possible. Thank-you for your patience! 73, Emily --------------------------------- N1DID formerly W0EEC - CM87tm Support Project OSCAR - http://www.projectoscar.net

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LVB tracker, USB interface boards on eBay.
by jules＠g0nzo.co.uk 12 Sep '06

12 Sep '06

All I have just seen these items. The look to be the modules that Howard designed his LVB tracker board to accept. Will give your LVB tracker an on-board USB interface. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/USB-Serial-interface-module_W0QQitemZ160009996603QQih… Jules

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Eagle-S
by WILLIAMS MICHAEL 12 Sep '06

12 Sep '06

I'm waiting for AMSAT-DL to announce it's abandoning P3E's S-band downlink system based on AMSAT-NA's recent data. It would put an end to this. Nobody seems to put my 5 GHz phones back in their chargers when done. Mike K9QHO AMSAT 33589

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(no subject)
by David J 12 Sep '06

12 Sep '06

The Florida AMSAT Net will meet this Thursday evening at the usual time of 19:30 ET, 23:30 UTC on the West Florida Group Ni4CE repeater system, the Orlando N4HHA repeater at 443.1 MHz, 103.5Hz tone, the N4LEM Cocoa repeater, 147.36 MHz +107.2 PL or connect by echolink to KG4YZY-R. The net's purpose is to provide a platform for hams with amateur satellite interest to meet and discuss topics of interest. All amateurs are invited to check in. Dave, AA4KN

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Re: 10mtr and Galileo
by Miroslav Kasal 12 Sep '06

12 Sep '06

Hi Domenico et al., You are right. Centers of the analog pass-bands are: L1 = 1268.800 MHz L2 = 1263.300 MHz Pass-bands are +/- 75kHz around these frequencies. 73, Mirek OK2AQK Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 16:29:18 +0200 From: "i8cvs" <domenico.i8cvs(a)tin.it> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: 10mtr and Galileo To: "Miroslav Kasal" <kasal(a)feec.vutbr.cz>, "AMSAT-BB" <amsat-bb(a)amsat.org> Message-ID: <003a01c6d5ae$ab684140$0201a8c0(a)tin.it> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Mirek, OK2AQK Tank you for this information and so as already published by AMSAT-DL in the following document http://www.amsat-dl.org/pic/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_i temId=6497 For the linear mode the uplink L1 will use 1268.725 to 1268.875 MHz while the Galileo Alternative L2 will use 1263.225 to 1263.375 MHz Please confirm. Best 73" de i8CVS Domenico

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Re: 10m band kibitzing
by jari.koivurinne＠mail.htk.fi 12 Sep '06

12 Sep '06

>Hi AMSATs, > >I like to give my comment on the message of N6GHZ. >As far as I know there will be a 29MHz receiver on >P3e. >Maybe things have changed but at the last designer >meeting in Marburg, where I showed my MODE-UV >prototype it was discussed. > >At that time the 29MHz receiver was a task of the >Finish group. However this group was very busy with >other parts of the satellite and 29MHz was on low >priority. Another problem was the physical space, and >it was agreed that is should join a small space in the >MODE-UV box. > >73 >William >--- Early P3E-plan had the 10m band receiver and an engineering model was made by Janne OH1LRY. I designed and made a matching diplexer to use simultaneously the L-band receiving helix as a 10m short whip antenna. I modeled the helix tuning unit with some excessive field test. However the commission dropped the 10m RX to save space and make the concept not so complex. Also there was discussion about poor link budget and maybe the L-band helix antenna have to change to other type that made the things uncertain. Besides the short L-band helix was not really good antenna on 10m ;-P So there is no 10m RX aboard. We are having hard times to fit all parts inside that satellite. Space is a bit tight and almost all components must be SMD. At least in our 05E-module size 22x34x3.3cm (8.6x13.3x1.2 inch) which contains S-band receiver, X-band transmitter, switching power supplies, Linear-IF processors, Coherent ranging processor and all control circuits. But now we have some spare parts to build a simple small satellite! -jari oh3uw ----------------------------- VIRPI - http://virpi.net -----------------------------

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L band gain
by w7lrd＠comcast.net 12 Sep '06

12 Sep '06

Hello My lesson in humility is over. I need more gain/power. If I put a 5 1/2 turn helix in front of a 36x30 primestar dish how much gain would that give me on 1.268 Ghz ? My current antenna is a directive systems DSH23-12 (12 turn helix) and is given as 14.5 dBic. 73 Bob W7LRD Seattle

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FIRST L/S ATTEMPT
by w7lrd＠comcast.net 12 Sep '06

12 Sep '06

Hello Bob will be making his first L/S attempt on AO51 this evening on orbit #11568 (not sure I have that correct). It's the orbit that goes right (South to North) up the middle of the country. I have an IC-1271A running 10 watts through 50 feet of LMR400 to a 12 turn helix. S band is a 3 foot primestar/helix feed/3731 d/c. Looking for contacts and/or reception results. I may need a larger antenna, I have a 3 foot, a 4 foot and 12TVRO dish that are "waiting" for something. This is really a kick! 73 Bob W7LRD Seattle

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First L/S QSO!!
by w7lrd＠comcast.net 12 Sep '06

12 Sep '06

I worked AK5V for my first L/S effort. Though several others did not hear me or said "you're too weak om". Clearly I have some work to do. What is the recommeded erp for AO51 L band?? My little 10W through 50 feet of coax to a 12 turn helix is just not cutting it. In planning for the next HEO I will have to make improvements. What are you L'ers using? I will be on the next pass. 73 Bob W7LRD Seattle

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Symposium Registration Reminder
by Emily Clarke 12 Sep '06

12 Sep '06

Just a reminder that if you are going to register for the Symposium it will be a good idea to do it on or before September 15th. On September 16th the price increases from $45 to $55. 73, Emily --------------------------------- N1DID formerly W0EEC - CM87tm Support Project OSCAR - http://www.projectoscar.net

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H-IIA F10 launch successful
by Mineo Wakita 12 Sep '06

12 Sep '06

H-IIA/F10 was successful in the launch at 04:35 UTC 11Sep06. http://www.jaxa.jp/missions/projects/rockets/h2a/index_e.html --------------------------------------------- Name: Mineo Wakita / JE9PEL, JAMSAT member Mail: ei7m-wkt(a)asahi-net.or.jp URL : http://www.ne.jp/asahi/hamradio/je9pel/ QTH : Yokohama Japan, GL:pm95tj Date: Sep 12, 2006 ---------------------------------------------

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Planning for the future, downconverter options.
by Vince Fiscus, KB7ADL 12 Sep '06

12 Sep '06

As Eagle won't have S band downlinks, I'd like to know if there is something simple out there that I can use in place of my AIDC 3731 downconverter to receive the higher frequencies on my 3' dish. I'd like something low cost, compact and simple like the transystems units were.

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Re: 10m band kibitzing
by William Leijenaar 11 Sep '06

11 Sep '06

Hi AMSATs, I like to give my comment on the message of N6GHZ. He wrote: "I am tried to get 10 metres looked at again by the AMSAT team but my comments have gone unanswered. I have also tried to query Peter to get an understanding why 29 MHz was dropped on P3E but no answer there either." As far as I know there will be a 29MHz receiver on P3e. Maybe things have changed but at the last designer meeting in Marburg, where I showed my MODE-UV prototype it was discussed. At that time the 29MHz receiver was a task of the Finish group. However this group was very busy with other parts of the satellite and 29MHz was on low priority. Another problem was the physical space, and it was agreed that is should join a small space in the MODE-UV box. As I had the MODE-UV transponder under my control I managed to join some PCB units together to make more space for a 29MHz receiver. Finally I even made the 29MHz receiver unit myself as I had the whole transponder here at home. The whole MODE-UV flight-mode transponder included the 29MHz receiver unit I delivered at AMSAT-DL in May 2005, as the first flight ready transponder for P3e. Unfortunatly the 29MHz I had to take out as the Finish group was choosen to design it, what I respect fully. The transponder included the 29MHz receiver can be seen on my webpage at the following link: http://www.qsl.net/pe1rah/p3e_mode-uv3/p3e_mode-uv3.html What supprizes me is that you tell me that 29MHz is not on P3e... I hope this is a mistake as I still have the receiver here at home for P3e in case the Finish group can not deliver their 29MHz rx. Unfortunatly I also didn't hear any sign from AMSAT after I delivered my MODE-UV flight-model. I mentioned many times that I will support in case of MODE-UV problems, as I do it for the world-wide AMSAT community in general... like I did with VO-52. This promise still stands... What ever will not fly on P3e and is of my design will be available for any other (long lifetime) amateur satellite project that has a good chance to fly and will support world-wide ham community. In case there is free satellite space available on an interresting OSCAR orbit (AMSAT or none-AMSAT satellite) I might sponsor a mode-uv or mode-vu linear transponder of my own design. I also hope some more 23cm uplinks will be available on satellites. I would love to test my 200W PA on a Ground Plane antenna, and see how it works on the amsats (and use this band widely so other none-ham users know ham activity is in this band (and hopefully they disapear soon) :o) Lets make some more sats like VO-52... I only need the box, solar panels and a rocket... The radio and antennas I will take care of ;o) 73 William --- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

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Re: 10mtr and Galileo
by jules＠g0nzo.co.uk 11 Sep '06

11 Sep '06

Just for the record, the first Galileo satellite has already been launched: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4566264.stm Also there was a study made by the UK microwave group (the body representing UK amateur interests above 1GHz), which makes interesting reading. It suggests that the signals from Galileo would have little impact on terrestrial/EME 23cms opperation. Obviously the conclusions woule require a little re-interpretation, with respect to satellite based reception. But as Galileo transmissions will presumably be aimed at the earth, so that any amatuer satellite will receive signals greater than that on earth, for a minute part of it's orbit, I would think that the conclusions drawn would still be valid. It's an interesting read: http://www.microwavers.org/papers/iaru/C5-13_Galileo.pdf Jules G0NZO >Speaking of allocations being taken away, I just can't fathom the AMSAT >decision to drop L-Band up because of the "Galileo Affair." Now that's a >decision based on "crystal ball engineering" and not fact. I've even read >that if Galileo ever was launched - and that appears in the latest press to >be questionable" the US "would has threatened to shoot them down!" > >Regards...Bill - N6GHz

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Antenna Recommendation
by Steven Samuel Bosshard (NU5D) 11 Sep '06

11 Sep '06

Hello to the list, At present I hve a G-5500 AZEL Rotor, with the azimuth rotor on a rotor plate, and the elevation rotor about 5 ft above the flat top tower. An M2 fiberglass cross boom goes out 5 ft either side of the elevation rotor. There is a M2 7 ELE cp antenna on one side, and both a 432, 15 ELE CP antenna and a 35 ele 1296 antenna on the other side. Several questions. 1 - everything VHF and UHF are RH CP. 1296 is fixed horizontal. How much would I benefit adding polarity reversing switches? and is there any benefit trying cp on 1296? 2 - I am thinking about adding 2.4G to this mess. What antenna would this group recommend for out in the country - near Gatesville Texas - pop 15,000 (1/2 of whom are incarcerated). Yagi, parabola, etc - weight would be a factor with the elevation rotor, and fiberglass boom. Downconverter or transverter tower mounted, and IF back to the shack. 3 - Are plans for 2.4 down only or are there also plans for 2.4 up? ie, downconverter or transverter? I know these questions are very elementary, but I am new to AMSAT and learning. Thanks for your patience, Steve NU5D Ham Radio Spoken Here...NU5D EM11

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S-band on Eagle
by John Mock KD6PAG 11 Sep '06

11 Sep '06

I'm too busy with other things to read AMSAT-BB or digest Eaglepedia (or whatever it's called). Speaking only as an satellite QRPer, i do have a naive question... Various amateur satellites, such as AO-7, AO-13, FO-29, AO-40, and AO-51, have been programmed to operate in a variety of different modes. Generally speaking a given frequency is usually an uplink or a downlink. On Eagle, i believe we are contrained by size considerations in terms of antenna placement, so we can't put everything we like on that bird. Assuming S band is not on all of the time, might it be feasible for it to be switchable between being an uplink or a downlink? I see this as allowing newcomers to use existing and/or inexpensive S-band downconverters some of the time, and others to use the wider bandwidth of S-band uplinks for digital experiments at other times. This might also be a way of occupying our allocated S-band spectra enough of the time to make an impression on other users while still providing an easy path for people to get beyond mode J-FM. And perhaps allow the kinds of experiments that i really had hoped that would have happened with RUDAK in parallel with AO-40 voice operations. -- KD6PAG (Networking Old-Timer, Satellite QRPer) P.S. I was able to work AO-40 QRP via a pair of homebrew quagis. I'm looking forward to doing something similar on P3E and Eagle.

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Re: DIY 70cm preamp ideas?
by Kyle Yoksh 11 Sep '06

11 Sep '06

--- Original Message --- Hi Kyle How about this one: (http://www.g0mrf.freeserve.co.uk/432LNA.htm) 73 David ------------------------ Hi David, Thanks for this link. I was looking this over and it sounds quite impressive, but I did not find a parts listing. Seems a kit can be purchased, but must then be shipped overseas, etc. Do you happen to know where I can find a parts listing? I likely have most of the necessary parts in my 'junk box'. 73, Kyle K0KN

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Re: DIY 70cm preamp ideas?
by G0MRF＠aol.com 11 Sep '06

11 Sep '06

Hi Kyle How about this one: _http://www.g0mrf.freeserve.co.uk/432LNA.htm_ (http://www.g0mrf.freeserve.co.uk/432LNA.htm) 73 David In a message dated 11/09/2006 18:08:13 GMT Standard Time, yokshs(a)sbcglobal.net writes: Hi, I am interested in building a couple of preamps for 70cm. I've Googled a little bit, but several designs require finding a specific version of the ARRL Handbook, etc. Does anyone have a complete plan available including parts list, etc? Thanks, Kyle Yoksh KØKN Olathe, Kansas Amsat# 35249

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DIY 70cm preamp ideas?
by Kyle Yoksh 11 Sep '06

11 Sep '06

Hi, I am interested in building a couple of preamps for 70cm. I've Googled a little bit, but several designs require finding a specific version of the ARRL Handbook, etc. Does anyone have a complete plan available including parts list, etc? Thanks, Kyle Yoksh KØKN Olathe, Kansas Amsat# 35249

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Latest info on P3E
by i8cvs 11 Sep '06

11 Sep '06

Hi, All Tanks to Reinhard DJ1KM r.richter(a)dj1km.de who sent me a letter dated April 14 2006 you will find the latest info on P3E at: http://www.amsat-dl.org/pic/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_i temId=6497 The address is very long so that is truncated. Be sure to copy both lines It is a 5.6 MB large PDF document (download) in English language. Best 73" de i8CVS Domenico

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Re: S-Band Not 2.4 but 2.3
by Matt 11 Sep '06

11 Sep '06

VK is 2300~2302 and 2400~2450 Lost most of 2.3 GHz for wireless cable paytv broadcast, which by the way failed and is now only a couple of narrowcasts in major cities which are failing too! JA is 2400~2450 only ZL is 2396~2450 HL is 2400~2450 I see a trend here for region 3! >--- Emily Clarke <emily(a)clarke-design.com> wrote: > > Currently there is a 5MHz > > amateur allocation at 2300-2305 in all three regions and a 10MHz > > allocation at 2390 - 2400. I believe the 2390-2400 is primary as it > > appears in all caps and 2300-2305 may also be primary. > >Neither the United Kingdom or Germany have an Amateur allocation at 2300-2310 >MHz. > >The UK's allocation is 2310 - 2450 and Germany's 2320-2450, hence the adoption >of 2320 for weak signal (CW/SSB) terrestrial working in Europe. > >So at present I think only 2390-2400 is common between US/Europe. > >73 Trevor M5AKA

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Re: 10mtr and Galileo
by Miroslav Kasal 11 Sep '06

11 Sep '06

Hi OMs, Yes, the Galileo spectrum null for both E6 orthogonal signals goes out on 1263.4 MHz. For that reason the P3E L-band receiver local oscillator is synthesized and receiver is possible to retune from 1268.800 to 1263.300 MHz (center of the analog passband) by command from the Earth. On 1268.52 MHz we expected one of the power spectral density peaks of Galileo sigs. I already offered participation on Eagle project in the field of L-band receiver. Mirek OK2AQK P3E L-band Rx designer >> Hi John, >> >> Consider this....... >> >> >> 4) I understand that the P3E folks have already worked out a solution by locating their L-Band operations in what will be a Galileo spectrum null. If that is the case, then the P3E folks are really using some good "science" to develop their satellite L-Band operations. Good for them!! Hey - I'm not in the thick of it - but it seems there are some serious gaps in communication between AMSAT-DL and AMSAT-NA even though we read about glimpses of real technical exchange. I hope we're not falling for the NIH (Not-Invented-Here) syndrome. >> >> Regards...Bill - N6GHz >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: amsat-bb-bounces(a)amsat.org [mailto:[email protected]]On >> Behalf Of John B. Stephensen >> Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 7:47 PM >> To: jules(a)g0nzo.co.uk; amsat-bb(a)amsat.org >> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: 10mtr and Galileo >> >> >> What bothered people is the fact that we need high power L-band uplinks and the statement in the report that "there is the potential for most amateur 23 cm transmissions to interfere with Galileo unless the Galileo receivers are designed and built to withstand it". >> >> 73, >> >> John >> KD6OZH >>

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S-band continued.
by john hackett 11 Sep '06

11 Sep '06

Aw C'mon guys, You don't really expect the b.o.d. to pay any attention to the opinions of those whom actually "operate" on amateur satellites - not to speak of the paying public with their "donations". Be smart, tell 'em what you *don't* want - then maybe you'll get what you *do* want. (tongue in cheek). Remember ... they know better than than you! what you want - as I've oft times been told - (by b.o.d. members) (... and yes, I'm fully aware of the following "sound" reasons for some of the decisions). 1) We have to adhere to the "constructors and planners" wishes otherwise the org: will die. 2) This is Amsat-NA, we can't oblige 3rd world country wishes - (even if we DO accept their donations). 3) Cutting edge technology - (read: fewer and fewer participants/the affluent only). 4) Launch criteria has changed - (money, money, money). I just wonder if the simple mode-A that actually worked v high tech that doesn't - (for whatever reason) - has sunk in yet ... apparently not. In my opinion, RS-10 and FO-20 were the most popular and widely used amateur radio satellites (worldwide) - neither of which, incidentally, had anything to do with Amsat. ... and before you turn on the flame throwers, yes, I AM doing my bit for the amateur radio satellite fraternity ... and I AM entitled to an opinion - (though I am NOT asking you to agree with it) - it does appear however that there is a continuing conflict of interests between the "planners" and the "users". 73 John. <la2qaa(a)amsat.org>

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AO-51 Mode L/S
by Francesco Grappi 11 Sep '06

11 Sep '06

Hello All, This morning at 07.12 UTC, I had nice qso with OE6AG on Ao-51 L/S mode Strong signal into 90 cm. dish with patch feed and keps downconverter only a little bit qsb, but signal was very good. Excellent mode L/S thank you Willy for qso Thank you the AO-51 Commander Team 73" Francesco IW4DVZ

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Re: 10mtr and Galileo
by Bruce Rahn 11 Sep '06

11 Sep '06

John B. Stephensen wrote: > The issue isn't technical, but regulatory. What will governments do > worldwide in the next 20 years? We can't change frequencies once we get > within 2 years of the first launch and must live with the choice for the > life of both Eagle satellites. Should AMSAT spend their members money on two > satellites that may become inacessible in the future or pick the safest > frequencies? > > 73, > > John > KD6OZH John, I.E., it is based on a perceived political climate. That's what I thought, thank you and there is still no sound technical reason why the politicians should prevail...sigh..but we know they follow no logic. Bruce -- Bruce Rahn Wisdom has two parts: 1. having a lot to say; and 2. not saying it!

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Re: Eagle Satellite Design
by George Henry 11 Sep '06

11 Sep '06

A number of BB participants have already indicated that they WON'T fund a satellite that they don't want, which begs the question: will Eagle fly, period? Has the design committee effectively killed the bird by killing enough interest? I hope not, but time will be the judge. I am disappointed by the loss of mode S, but would rather at least have a V/U HEO than no HEO. (I still maintain that the dire predictions for 2.4 GHz will not come to pass) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Emily Clarke" <emily(a)clarke-design.com> To: "George Henry" <ka3hsw(a)earthlink.net> Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2006 2:33 PM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: Eagle Satellite Design > > Most likely AMSAT wouldn't let you do it - it would interfere with the > primary mission. Besides - why should AMSAT members fund a satellite they > don't want, and they have to pay even more to rent space for a payload > they do want? > > 73, > > Emily > > > At 11:09 AM 9/9/2006, you wrote: >>So, how much to rent one of the TSFR spaces? Maybe all of us who still >>believe in S-Band could pool our funds to fly our own transponder..... >>fund >>the mode instead of the bird? >> >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Rick Hambly (W2GPS)" <w2gps(a)cnssys.com> >>To: <amsat-bb(a)amsat.org> >>Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2006 5:21 AM >>Subject: [amsat-bb] Eagle Satellite Design >> >> >><snip> >> > >> > c) There are at least two TSFR (This-Space-For-Rent) packages that >> > could >> > possibly contain other RF or other payloads, conditioned on the >> > availability >> > of power, antenna space and compatibility with the primary payloads.

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Re: 10mtr and Galileo
by Bruce Rahn 11 Sep '06

11 Sep '06

John B. Stephensen wrote: > Galileo transmits on 1260-1300 MHz and 1215-1300 MHz is now allocated to > global positioning systems (up to 5 of them). Amateur transmissions can > desense the earth-based receivers. Tests on U.S. GPS receivers showed > that a > 1W EIRP CW signal 10 km away would cause inteference. It would be > better if > 1260-1270 MHz was a downlink for amateur satellites. > > 73, > > John > KD6OZH John, You are neglecting real word conditions...future civilian airborne GPS/GNSS/Galileo receiver systems are going to have to incorporate anti-jam capabilities. A few do already and changes in the signal coding for the new civilian GPS downlink will have a much more robust capability when it comes to interference rejection. I also believe Galileo will too employ a more jam resistant signal waveform. There are much greater threats to these systems than ham operators from a real-world technical perspective. However, I will concede that government agencies may eliminate amateur use of L-Band for political reasons...an easy, but meaningless way for them to show they are taking action. However, until and if the hammer comes down, there are currently no strong technical reasons to eliminate L-Band uplinks. Bruce -- Bruce Rahn Wisdom has two parts: 1. having a lot to say; and 2. not saying it!

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Re: 10mtr and Galileo
by joseph Murray 11 Sep '06

11 Sep '06

John I am confused Please provide something to cure my problem I believe at this point that the Galileo bird transmits to receivers on the ground in the current amateur mode L up link spectrum. Right or wrong? What frequency in the same amateur L mode spectrum is the Galileo using for receiving. Joe Murray K0VTY Amsat #860 ============== On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 02:47:22 -0000 "John B. Stephensen" <kd6ozh(a)comcast.net> writes: > What bothered people is the fact that we need high power L-band > uplinks and > the statement in the report that "there is the potential for most > amateur 23 > cm transmissions to interfere with Galileo unless the Galileo > receivers are > designed and built to withstand it". > > 73, > > John > KD6OZH > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <jules(a)g0nzo.co.uk> > To: <amsat-bb(a)amsat.org> > Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 23:37 UTC > Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: 10mtr and Galileo > > > > Just for the record, the first Galileo satellite has already been > launched: > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4566264.stm > > > > Also there was a study made by the UK microwave group (the body > representing > > UK amateur interests above 1GHz), which makes interesting reading. > It > > suggests that the signals from Galileo would have little impact > on > > terrestrial/EME 23cms opperation. Obviously the conclusions woule > require > a > > little re-interpretation, with respect to satellite based > reception. But > as > > Galileo transmissions will presumably be aimed at the earth, so > that any > > amatuer satellite will receive signals greater than that on earth, > for a > > minute part of it's orbit, I would think that the conclusions > drawn would > > still be valid. It's an interesting read: > > http://www.microwavers.org/papers/iaru/C5-13_Galileo.pdf > > > > Jules > > G0NZO > > > > > > >Speaking of allocations being taken away, I just can't fathom the > AMSAT > > >decision to drop L-Band up because of the "Galileo Affair." Now > that's a > > >decision based on "crystal ball engineering" and not fact. I've > even read > > >that if Galileo ever was launched - and that appears in the > latest press > to > > >be questionable" the US "would has threatened to shoot them > down!" > > > > > >Regards...Bill - N6GHz > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the > author. > > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite > program! > > Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb > > _______________________________________________ > Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the > author. > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite > program! > Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb > >

3 2

S MODE OR NOT! here is my test results
by Luc Leblanc VE2DWE 11 Sep '06

11 Sep '06

On 8 Sep 2006 at 1:04, Tom Clark, K3IO wrote: > Yes, this decision was based on incomplete data. It would be wonderful > if many of you took the challenge to make quantitative measurements of > the S-band RFI levels in multiple locations. I try the test during the week end but i cannot received directly on 2.4ghz as i am using a downconverter and what i measure its the downconverter output. I was fortunate enough to find under a pile of paper a "test" sheet i made when AO-40 was at apogee with a squint angle of 8. I was writing at that time at elevation 0 a floor noise swinging between S-3 to S-5 on my Ft-847. I was concern at that time with the low elevation pass where i can be able to reach japan. What i hear was the usual pop pop but tweaking the DSP and the NB i reduce this QRM/N to a level where i was able to perform a QSO, and i made it i work Japan a couple of time then. At 25 degree of elevation the noise fell at S-1 and at 35 degree to 90 the noise remain at .5 S units. At that time The telephone and WI-FI interference was one of the main topics of discussion when speaking about U/S mode on AO-40. Over the week end i recheck my S band noise with EXACTLY THE SAME SETUP i was using in the above test. Did you know what i discover? EXACTLY the same results and AO-40 was placing a S6 to S9 signal at apogee with squint near 0. If AO-40 was still on i certified that i will able to replicate the same results without any doubts! The S2 TX power was about 100 watts and the antenna was only an helix of 8 turns if i can remember correctly. Even if Eagle delivers half this power with a cheaper antenna i am convince i will still be able to make it. You know my town was the fourth first erected in North America during the french regime. She's probably not the greatest in the world actually...but we have electricity and WI-FI and cordless phones who evoluate at the same pace as the other big towns on earth. This is real stuff from the real world and base on what i checked this week end i still don't believe the conclusions made about this FAKED noise problem. What they calculate it is an existing situation who was existing since 2003. Playing with carrier and large bandwidth receiver only confirm that during the whole life of AO-40 THE WHOLE WORLD succeed and quite easily to establish numerous CW and SSB contacts all over the world. This argumenting about a noise floor does not stand the road at all. Did they go fishing to see the reactions of the users? Did they want to force their own ways of thinking to the users or are they making some other clever tricks to as usual make the users swallow the sour pills? Be my guest and added your own explanation to my list. As you all know i develop during the recent years on this reflector a kind of carapace and i just give view an overview of what i received in this "trouble period":"I get emotional when people do not use the minds they have been given and allow people who are no longer even members of our organization drive a debate." I was always asking to restricts the posting privileges to MEMBERS ONLY when i was member but i was told by high ranking BOD members (could be the same he refer to)... that the AMSAT-BB is open to all... Sorry about this but i always believe the insulting comments are the arguments of the weeks or those who are making mistakes and who tries to cover them. Anyway i will protect the identity of this one but this bad planning by AMSAT-NA will only draw more and more members out. Will only remain those with political, financial, selfish interest. My only hope is they are not all in the president donor club... >From this on i suggest a motto for the October AMSAT symposium "WE WANTS S BAND DOWNLINKS ON EAGLE" As i am not a member i can only suggest it but i will try to update my web page to promote the motto. If S band downlink will be on eagle i will join the "gang" See you later S bander ;) "-" The medium is the message...The content is the audience...;) Luc Leblanc VE2DWE Skype VE2DWE www.qsl.net/ve2dwe

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Re: The Eagle has died.
by w7lrd＠comcast.net 11 Sep '06

11 Sep '06

Hello For me AO-40 was an "easy sat". A 30 inch primestar, helix feed, and a 3731 d/c. Only an occasional "click" from whatever. If we are looking at the sky with a dish, how does the higher noise floor and qrm from the ground affect our reception. I admit I am not quite understanding something. 73 Bob W7LRD Seattle -------------- Original message -------------- From: "Eric Van Offelen" <ericvo(a)telefonica.net> > Mode U/S with AO-40 was a real pleasure to work, with excellent signals once > the receiving set-up had been optimized (1.2 m solid dish and a good DB6NT > LNA). > Living here in high density WiFi area, cordless phones, wireless CCTV and > all kind of 2.4 Ghz junk ! > I could regularly hear the noise floor of the S band transponder and contact > very low power stations. > 73's > Eric > EA5GIY > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "i8cvs" > To: "Robert Oler" ; "Keith Bainbridge" > ; "AMSAT-BB" > Cc: > Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 2:52 PM > Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: The Eagle has died. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Robert Oler" > > To: ; > > Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 6:33 AM > > Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: The Eagle has died. > > > >> I sometimes look back on > >> the AO-40 Easy Sat articles (well written by Steve Ford) and smile. > >> > >> anyway intresting comments on your part. > >> > >> Robert Oler WB5MZO/portable > >> > >> Amsat Life member > >> Robert Oler WB5MZO Houston TX > > > > Hi Robert, WB5MZO > > > > In addition to the Steve Ford articles read please the article written by > > Antony Monteiro AA2TX in to QST september 2006 page-42 and smile > > again ! > > > > 73" de > > > > i8CVS Domenico > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. > > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! > > Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! > Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb

2 1

P3E
by Tim Tapio 11 Sep '06

11 Sep '06

Can anyone point me in a direct for current status? I did some googling but couldn't find anything recent. Thanks! 73 de Tim, K4SHF FM04kx

2 1

Two Sats
by sco＠sco-inc.com 11 Sep '06

11 Sep '06

If two sats like Hamsat (or Echo) were in orbit at the same time and could see each other ... Could User#1 uplink to Sat-A and then Sat-A would link to Sat-B (probably on one of the higher microwave bands) then Sat-B would downlink to User#2 and User#2 would uplink to Sat-B and be relayed to Sat-A and down to User#1 ?? If this could be done there would be a much larger footprint and launch costs would be far less expensive, correct? Les W4SCO

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Mode L/S on AO-51 is alive
by Stefan Wagener 11 Sep '06

11 Sep '06

Beautiful!!!!!! What a blast. Using a 2' Dish and downconverter from K5GNA for downlink on 2m with a TS2000X and a 23CM22EZ (vertical polarization) from M2 for uplink, the signal is just beautiful. Nice chat with N5UXT on the last AO-51 pass. L/S mode is viable, is alive and working and that's the fact! If you don't believe it, just listen. 73, Stefan VE4NSA

1 0

5Ghz WiFi
by sco＠sco-inc.com 11 Sep '06

11 Sep '06

QVC is advertising the SMC WMRAG EZ Stream 2.4GHz/5GHz Wireless Multimedia Receiver for $199. If the wifi devices start going to the 5Ghz band how would that affect Eagle in the future? Les W4SCO

4 3

Re: S band, experience from UK
by jules＠g0nzo.co.uk 11 Sep '06

11 Sep '06

All My station is in a built up area in the UK, which I would assume has a level of S band licence exempt traffic that is typical of most areas. I can see 5 video senders on my ATV receiver and a 4 WLAN networks on my PDA with built in antenna. When I listened to AO40, I only had problems below 10 degrees elevation. This represents a small percentage of a pass, that it did not worry me. (I am aware that the orbit of Eagle may not be quite so favourable). Also, AO40 signals WERE rock crushing for me. With a 5ft dish, very non optimal linear feed and pretty average NF, I could hear VK stations as armchair copy in ssb, even at apogee. Often they were still copyable at LOS, unless I was pointing straight at the WLAN. I will try and make some quantive measurements and submit them, but my gut feeling is that S band is still a viable downlink in my location. My 2 penneth worth.... I am not an AMSAT-NA member. Any donations I make go indirectly through my local AMSAT group. So I am not going to get into the politics of this. But... I expect that the decision to drop S-band was not taken lightly. The people who take on these satellite projects, do so at great personal and sometimes financial expense. Given the great commitment that these people make, it seems a little discourteous to moan about not being able to use a small part of our stations. Our S-band capability will still be useable for P3E. Also, by building an S-band station, you have already reaped the greatest reward, which is the experience of doing it, isn't that what Amateur Radio is all about. In all hobbies, it seems that there is so much in-fighting, that people loose sight of the bigger picture. There are people in authority who are out to get us. In this case it is the commercial pressure on our spectrum. The old adage, 'Use it or loose it', is very true here. So if the bit that we are able to use doesn't happen to match the box that we have on our mast, then we must adapt. Who knows, you may learn something on the way. Jules G0NZO

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AO-51 now in L/S
by Andrew Glasbrenner 11 Sep '06

11 Sep '06

AO-51 is now in L/S for the next week. Uplink is 1268.700, downlink 2401.200, FM. If you enjoy L/S please get active this week. The AO-51 Operations Group would like to hear as many users as possible. The level of traffic helps determine how often we run this mode, as well as other modes. 73, Drew KO4MA AMSAT LM 2332

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S band: Too early, as I said
by Robert McGwier 10 Sep '06

10 Sep '06

As I said previous to this note, our analysis and all of this hoopla is released too early. We have not fully prepared for the onslaught and we have only done a <<technical analysis>> that resulted from the assumption that Galileo was going to cause loss of L band. It is not in our political interests frankly for this understanding to be widespread but now that it is, we might as well go ahead and do all of our "worst case scenario" analysis in public. It is my understanding that Argentina and the Netherlands have LOST 2400-2450 for use by terrestrial radio amateurs because of interference from amateur radio operators (primarily BLOODY ATV) to 802.11 services. Amateurs have been told to stop transmitting in those bands. I need much more information. DO NOT SEND YOUR ANECDOTE HERE. Please send to me DIRECTLY your personal, first hand knowledge of loss of 2400-2450 IN YOUR COUNTRY or any other country FOR WHICH YOU CAN PROVIDE DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE. I have no interest whatsoever in rumor. I need facts. If this phenomenon is widespread, then the use of S band as an uplink is a useless argument to be having and the whining can stop. ALL that was done in San Diego was a technical analysis. No legal or political analysis has been done at all. We are not prepared to say "This is what we are doing". We are prepared to say "This is what the technical folks came up with given the assumption of the loss of L band and the assumption that 9 cm would be politically unacceptable". NOTHING ELSE should be assumed now. But let me repeat (ad infinitum?), I am personally interested in managing the design and building of an instrument that accomplishes the AMSAT vision statement. If I find that we have essentially lost all microwave bands we have in the amateur satellite service that can be used effectively to support the vision statement (given engineering computation and "circuit practicalities"), I will lose interest in managing this whether it be an AMSAT political decision or an international frequency disaster which we have allowed to go unanswered in any substantive way. AMSAT-DL is the perfect vehicle to produce P3 spacecraft with our help where needed. We do not need to duplicate their efforts. DO NOT send your anecdote to this list. Send your FACTS to me, with supporting evidence, so I can summarize what I believe the impact of this to be for the AMSAT BOD. Bob N4HY -- AMSAT VP Engineering. Member: ARRL, AMSAT-DL, TAPR, Packrats, NJQRP/AMQRP, QRP ARCI, QCWA, FRC. ARRL SDR Wrk Grp Chairman "You see, wire telegraph is a kind of a very, very long cat. You pull his tail in New York and his head is meowing in Los Angeles. Do you understand this? And radio operates exactly the same way: you send signals here, they receive them there. The only difference is that there is no cat." - Einstein

3 3

S-Band Not 2.4 but 2.3
by Matt 10 Sep '06

10 Sep '06

Ok granted 2.40 GHz to 2.45 GHz has a high noise floor and will get worse. So this will be a good band for uplinking. I know it's not a satellite allocation but what about a downlink around 2310 ~ 2390? Or maybe 2300 ~ 2302? I also know that some countries have lost access to 2.302 GHz to 2.4 GHz (VK is one) but as a downlink no one is stopping us from listening there. Or must a satellite transmitters be compliant with all international allocations? Or maybe 2300 ~ 2302 would upset to many other users?

12 15

S band downlink on P3E
by Joseph Trombino Jr 10 Sep '06

10 Sep '06

Disappointed to find out that there will not be an S band downlink on Eagle Will there be an S band downlink on the P3E bird??? Sure hate having to fork over more money each time a new satellite goes up because previous up/downlinks are not being used anymore....makes me wish for more mode A LEO birds (grin) 73, Joe W2KJ

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Re: Eagle Satellite Design
by George Henry 10 Sep '06

10 Sep '06

So, how much to rent one of the TSFR spaces? Maybe all of us who still believe in S-Band could pool our funds to fly our own transponder..... fund the mode instead of the bird? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Hambly (W2GPS)" <w2gps(a)cnssys.com> To: <amsat-bb(a)amsat.org> Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2006 5:21 AM Subject: [amsat-bb] Eagle Satellite Design <snip> > > c) There are at least two TSFR (This-Space-For-Rent) packages that could > possibly contain other RF or other payloads, conditioned on the > availability > of power, antenna space and compatibility with the primary payloads.

2 1

STS-115 TLE
by jean-claude.aveni 10 Sep '06

10 Sep '06

Hello the gang TLE for STS-115 Atlantis STS-115 1 29391U 06036A 06253.64554025 -.00237466 00000-0 -11855-2 0 67 2 29391 051.6337 107.2487 0019979 239.6919 163.3114 15.81316756 163 From Space Track USAF 73 jc tk5gh -- *Jean-Claude Aveni* Tel portable : *06 80 92 38 79* Courriel prime : jean-claude.aveni(a)wanadoo.fr '' alternate : aveni(a)lma.cnrs-mrs.fr Site web à l'URL : http://astro-notes.org Call radio amateur : TK5GH

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Re: S band or any backup?
by Robert McGwier 10 Sep '06

10 Sep '06

>"David wrote: >It would be good to know that the linear backup plans have not been quietly >filed in the waste paper basket. " The SDX will be subjected to really brutal radiation testing. It does sound sweet to have a transmitter and receiver as linear as the SDX can be. I do not know anyone who is building the fall back piece and while it has not fallen off the table, I don't know who is building it. "Good engineering is important, but planing for the unexpected is vital." Indeed. "Incidentally. It occurs to me that a disadvantage of having one major UV transponder operating 24/7 is that while that concept removes the need for complicated scheduling it will occupy 100kHz or so of the 2m band permanently which may not be totally desirable in a limited 200kHz bandwidth. Presumably with Eagle 2 and 3 under design / construction at the time of launch they will have differnt bands. - Maybe 2390 - 2400 ish Good point. The 7/24 plan does include the digital piece in our plans. And yes, we do NOT have to duplicate U/V on follow on birds to Eagle. If P3E goes well and we see no need for another U/V transponder we can indeed do something different on subsequent Eagles. Enjoying the debate David G0MRF " -- AMSAT VP Engineering. Member: ARRL, AMSAT-DL, TAPR, Packrats, NJQRP/AMQRP, QRP ARCI, QCWA, FRC. ARRL SDR Wrk Grp Chairman "You see, wire telegraph is a kind of a very, very long cat. You pull his tail in New York and his head is meowing in Los Angeles. Do you understand this? And radio operates exactly the same way: you send signals here, they receive them there. The only difference is that there is no cat." - Einstein

1 0

Re: S band downlink on P3E
by k7zt＠cox.net 10 Sep '06

10 Sep '06

Ok, I ran S Band on AO-40 as well; my home, radio shack, and neighborhood are covered with 2.4Gig stuff. The ONLY interference I ever received was in the form of Very short burst (pops) which any noise blanker was extreamly effective at removing. The 5Gig band will be in the same shape as S Band is today. I simply don’t buy into the Interference argument. 73's DE K7ZT, Joe ---- "Félim Doyle M3HIM" <Felim.M3HIM(a)ntlworld.com> wrote: > But if you were a true conspiracy theorist your message would not have made > it this far. Some of mine didn't - and I'm no anarchist > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Goncalves" <davegoncalves(a)gmail.com> > To: <amsat-bb(a)amsat.org> > Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 4:27 PM > Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: S band downlink on P3E > > > > I love these messages; I really can't get enough of them. They really > > brighten my day. > > If Luc and AMSAT would bind these into a book, I'd buy it. I'd call it > "The > > AMSAT Anthology of Conspiracy". > > > > Luc, keep on doing what you are doing. > > > > Dave W1EUJ > > > > > Disappointed to find out that there will not be an S band downlink on > > > Eagle > > > > > > > > Will there be an S band downlink on the P3E bird??? > > > > > > > > Sure hate having to fork over more money each time a new satellite > goes > > > up > > > > because previous up/downlinks are not being used anymore....makes me > > > wish > > > > for more mode A LEO birds (grin) > > > > > > > > 73, Joe W2KJ > > > > > > Another bad move by AMSAT-NA... I don't know if they look at their > famous > > > survey about their > > > members opinions here? Probably not could be some one will wake up from > > > lethargy at the next > > > symposium and voices opinions about the maintaining of mode S. > > > > > > If AMSAT-NA is building sats in close circle they just have to openly > > > admitted it even if admission > > > is not a very spoken word they can at least give some explanations on > > > their facts who leads them to > > > scrap mode S? > > > > > > Interference? even if they wants to go higher at the time eagle will be > in > > > space the higher > > > frequencies will be as crowded as 2.4 actually. We actually see some > > > decreased in 2.4 ghz apparatus > > > as the public always want the most recent goodies even FRS/GMRS are > moving > > > to 5.2 ghz. > > > > > > Suggestion: At the next AMSAT-NA 2006 Space Symposium it will > appropriate > > > to voices opinions to the > > > BOD asking them to maintain as planned the mode S. > > > > > > Just to pointed out on a 2005 AMSAT-NA Dayton Hamvention Jim Sanford > > > WB4GCS made a presentation on > > > eagle project and he said i quote " S band will be our bread and butter > on > > > the downlink" a > > > prototype of L/S and C/S where planned for the 2005 Symposium at that > > > time. > > > > > > He also mention that the C/C project in on a bleeding edge technology > > > (read experimental) and they > > > where not too sure if they will even be able to make it. > > > > > > Why the C/C band project? he let go this " this will permit some folks > to > > > use it from their > > > balcony" the cat goes out the bag AGAIN the same ECHO mindings are > > > resurecting...The guy with an HT > > > will be able to make it without using a huge antenna! > > > > > > We will never be able to get rid of this obsession and you know now why > > > they want to move up? The > > > guy who live on a balcony is living in an apartment complex where S band > > > in unusable. Here is why > > > the C/C project come up. How many actual sat operator are living in > > > apartments? the majority of > > > some of them? > > > > > > Here is the whole logics behind this mode S scrapping. If you read a bit > > > behind the lines you will > > > see he speak about P3E where mode S will be present and he confirm some > > > collaboration between both > > > teams. He also say some of the Eagle builders are funding their own > > > project. From this since 2005 > > > we can only see the builders behind the C/C project pushing so hard to a > > > point to get the money > > > previously intended for the 2 S mode TX redirected to their C/C project. > > > > > > Who is driving AMSAT-NA an hollow BOD? an hollow president? Or a third > > > builders manipulating wing > > > who blackmail the BOD? > > > > > > None of them? I let the conclusion yours! > > > > > > P.S.To the BOD its not the best way to attract new members or convince > > > those who leave to rejoin! > > > > > > "-" > > > The medium is the message...The content is the audience...;) > > > > > > Luc Leblanc VE2DWE > > > Skype VE2DWE > > > www.qsl.net/ve2dwe > > > Former AMSAT-NA coordonnator and member. > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. > > > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite > program! > > > Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > David Goncalves > > _______________________________________________ > > Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. > > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! > > Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb > > _______________________________________________ > Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! > Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb

2 1

IMPORTANT - Symposium Hotel Reservation Information
by Emily Clarke 10 Sep '06

10 Sep '06

As happened in DC if you try to book your room through the central Crowne Plaza reservation system (toll free number) they may tell you the dates are unavailable. If this happens call the hotel directly and be sure to mention the AMS group code. If you still have problems please send me an email with your arrival and departure dates and I will arrange to speak with the hotel manager directly. One thing that isn't available through the website is that we can upgrade to the Executive rooms. The rate for executive rooms increases from $109 per night to $129 per night. 73, Emily --------------------------------- N1DID formerly W0EEC - CM87tm Support Project OSCAR - http://www.projectoscar.net

1 0

The REAL future of S-Band (was "Special AMSAT dinner")
by George Henry 10 Sep '06

10 Sep '06

Actually, I suspect that 3 years from now, we will see 2.4 GHz thinning out, as WiFi users migrate to the new latest-and-greatest products at 5.8 or higher. We all know that the lifespan of your typical computer "widget" is less than 5 years, and usually closer to 3. Already, stores like Best Buy and Circuit City are carrying way more 5.8 cordless phones than 2.4's... and when was the last time you saw a 900 MHz version? It wasn't that long ago that THEY were the cutting edge cordless! The same thing will happen with WiFi: all the new laptops and PDA's will come with the higher frequency cards, and users will be forced to migrate upward. You can take that to the bank! So put S-band on Eagle - I predict that it'll be wide open in 10 years, NOT a sewer. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Bruninga" <bruninga(a)usna.edu> To: <amsat-bb(a)amsat.org> Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 5:25 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] Special AMSAT dinner Three years from now when we have to suffer from a new round of comlaints about 2.4 GHz QRM interfering with the P3E Sband downlink, we could have a special AMSAT dinner. The main entrée might be crow. <snip>

5 6

Eagle efficiencies
by McGrane 10 Sep '06

10 Sep '06

Greetings I personally prefer lower frequencies for satellite transmitters because of the lower path loss. Now, after viewing the power information on the eaglepedia meeting summary, I believe electrical efficiency is another good reason to support the lower frequencies. >From what I saw (probably estimates), the VHF transmitter will be about 60% efficient while the C band transmitter will be about 30% efficient. I was very happy to see a respectable 20 watts planned for the VHF output and the same for the C band transmitter. Thanks again to the design team. EEck out those watts and hope you have an alternative for power storage. Some bold new idea would be great. Patrick, N2OEQ

6 6

APRS on ISS, PCSAT, and PCSAT2
by Armour, Randy (ITS) 10 Sep '06

10 Sep '06

I will apologize in advance as this question has probably been asked several times already. I am attempting to digi-peat through PCSAT, and PCSAT2 with an Arrow handheld and Kenwood D7A. Having no trouble using APRS on the ISS, I hope to be able to do the same with PCSAT and maybe even get through PCSAT2 before decommission. I can decode packets from PCSAT and PCSAT2, but never get a packet through either system. PCSAT had a 90 degree pass this morning, with no luck. I am suspicious that my packet path is incorrect, or I don't have enough power to reach the receivers. Packet path is ARISS,APRSAT,SGATE,WIDE. I was recently told that only ARISS was needed for PCSAT, PCSAT2, and ISS. Having no luck yet and time growing short for PCSAT2, I am hoping to get a definitive answer from the list. What is the correct packet path? Can I make it with such limited equipment as a handheld beam and 6 watt HT? Thanks in advance, Randy - KI4LMR

5 5

Re: Two Sats
by w7lrd＠comcast.net 10 Sep '06

10 Sep '06

Hello I and a few others "played" with this concept back in the RS etc days. I forget (senior moment) the specific satellites and frequencies involved. I was though a bit complicated. Tracking two satellites (using a Commodore 64) and figuring muliple doppler effects, due to satellite relative speeds. Anyway it was a fun endeavor. With HEO's you could cover the whole planet. 73 Bob W7LRD Seattle -------------- Original message -------------- From: sco(a)sco-inc.com > If two sats like Hamsat (or Echo) were in orbit at the same time and > could see each other ... > > Could User#1 uplink to Sat-A and then Sat-A would link to Sat-B > (probably on one of the higher microwave bands) then Sat-B would > downlink to User#2 and User#2 would uplink to Sat-B and be relayed to > Sat-A and down to User#1 ?? > > If this could be done there would be a much larger footprint and > launch costs would be far less expensive, correct? > > Les W4SCO > > > _______________________________________________ > Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! > Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb

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Po-28 no Heard
by Vincenzo Mone 10 Sep '06

10 Sep '06

Hi to the list, right now I have a pass of PO-28 but I do no hear any 9600 baud signal. It is a while that I do not hear it any more. Does anybody heard it or can tell me if is it still in good health? Thanks 73 de Enzo IK8OZV EasyLog 5 BetaTester EasyLog PDA BetaTester WinBollet BetaTester D.C.I. CheckPoint Regione Campania Skype: ik8ozv8520 *************************************** ***** GSM +39 338 9749786 ***** ***** SMS +39 338 9749786 ***** ***** FAX +39 328 7244294 ***** *** 2nd e-mail: vimone(a)tin.it *** ***************************************

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Re: The Eagle has died.
by i8cvs 10 Sep '06

10 Sep '06

----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Oler" <cvn65vf94(a)msn.com> To: <vk6xh(a)arach.net.au>; <amsat-bb(a)amsat.org> Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 6:33 AM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: The Eagle has died. > I sometimes look back on > the AO-40 Easy Sat articles (well written by Steve Ford) and smile. > > anyway intresting comments on your part. > > Robert Oler WB5MZO/portable > > Amsat Life member > Robert Oler WB5MZO Houston TX Hi Robert, WB5MZO In addition to the Steve Ford articles read please the article written by Antony Monteiro AA2TX in to QST september 2006 page-42 and smile again ! 73" de i8CVS Domenico

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[ans] ANS-253 AMSAT Weekly Bulletins
by Dee 10 Sep '06

10 Sep '06

AMSAT NEWS SERVICE ANS-253 ANS is a free, weekly, news and information service of AMSAT North America, The Radio Amateur Satellite Corporation. ANS reports on the activities of a worldwide group of Amateur Radio operators who share an active interest in designing, building, launching and communicating through analog and digital Amateur Radio satellites. Please send any amateur satellite news or reports to: ans-editor(a)amsat.org ****************** AMSAT 2006 Space Symposium ************************** Online registration and hotel reservation for the 2006 AMSAT Space Symposium has been posted to the AMSAT website, and information about the Symposium has been expanded. The 2006 AMSAT Space Symposium will be held October 6, 7 and 8 at the Crowne Plaza in Foster City California in the beautiful San Francisco Bay Area. Please visit http://www.amsat.org/amsat-new/symposium for additional information and an index to the expanded Symposium web pages. ************************************************************************ In this edition: * Mentor Graphics Makes Generous Donation * AMSAT Ballots due 9/15/06 * 2006 AMSAT Symposium * AO-51 PL Needed * Suit-Sat Re-enters * ARISS STATUS SB SAT @ AMSAT $ANS-253.01 Mentor Graphics Makes Generous Software Donation AMSAT News Service Bulletin 253.01 From AMSAT HQ SILVER SPRING, MD. September 10, 2006 To All RADIO AMATEURS BID: $ANS-253.01 AMSAT is very pleased to annouced an extremely generous donation of software tools from Mentor Graphics. Mentor Graphics has donated 20 licenses for entire suites of software with a total value in the hundreds of thousands of dollars! The software will used for the design, simulation, verification and test of circuits and multi-layer printed circuit boards for both the Eagle spacecraft as well as development of the User ground station for the digitial transponder. This software will be a great benefit to the Eagle and HPSDR team members working to develop the hardware that will make Eagle space and ground systems a reality. AMSAT thanks Mentor Graphics for their most generous donation. [ANS thanks Rick, W2GPS, for the above information] /EX SB SAT @ AMSAT $ANS-253.02 All AMSAT Ballots Due by Friday, 9/15/06 AMSAT News Service Bulletin 253.02 From AMSAT HQ SILVER SPRING, MD. September 10, 2006 To All RADIO AMATEURS BID: $ANS-253.02 Note to All AMSAT Members. Please make your vote count and get them mailed to AMSAT HQ by Friday, 9/15/06. Exercise your right to select your leadership and steer the group in the direction you feel is the proper course. Drop it in the mail now! Background on all the candidates can be found on the AMSAT web site to help your decisions. [ANS thanks Martha for the above information] /EX SB SAT @ AMSAT $ANS-253.03 2006 AMSAT Symposium AMSAT News Service Bulletin 253.03 From AMSAT HQ SILVER SPRING, MD. September 10, 2006 To All RADIO AMATEURS BID: $ANS-253.03 The annual Symposium is now about a month away. You can still sign up to attend this exciting event being held in San Francisco, CA. Meet all the leadeship and enjoy the classic talks given by superb speakers. Mingle with those that make satellites a reality-yes, real rocket scientists. All the information you need to join in this event are on the website. Stop by and read how to attend and see the great lineup of speakers and demonstrations that make this event unique. [ANS thanks Emily, N1DID, for the above information] /EX SB SAT @ AMSAT $ANS-253.04 AO-51 PL Needed AMSAT News Service Bulletin 253.04 From AMSAT HQ SILVER SPRING, MD. September 10, 2006 To All RADIO AMATEURS BID: $ANS-253.04 Remember that you need a PL of 67 Hz to access AO-51 in mode J-FM (except in QRP mode). Please, especially if you haven't worked a given satellite in mode J-FM before, make sure you can hear well enough copy callsigns before transmitting. There might be occasions on SO-50 when you're the only one on, but over the 'States, this is rather rare on AO-51, especially in high power mode. We're having problems with dead carriers on AO-51 this week, where sometimes even the regulars with good antenna setups can't get in due to interference from stations without PL. Please listen first and use the correct PL. 73's and good luck! September 11 to September 18 FM Repeater, L/S Uplink: 1268.700 MHz FM, No PL Tone Downlink: 2401.200 MHz FM [ANS thanks KD6PAG, for the above information] /EX SB SAT @ AMSAT $ANS-253.05 Suitsat Re-enters AMSAT News Service Bulletin 253.05 From AMSAT HQ SILVER SPRING, MD. September 10, 2006 To All RADIO AMATEURS BID: $ANS-253.05 All, On September 7, 2006 at 16:00 GMT, SuitSat-1 re-entered about 1400 km south-southwest of Western Australia. For more details, including the winners of the Chicken Little Contest, please go to: http://www.amsat.org/amsat-new/ariss/suitsatContest.php I want to thank all who made SuitSat-1 the phenomenal event that it was. Your hard work and dedication paid off. In just 3 weeks the SuitSat team developed and delivered a safe satellite system that has gained the confidence of the international space agencies. The web and PR team were able to garner unprecedented press coverage of our ham/educational outreach activity, including over 9 million hits on www.suitsat.org in February. Students around the world had the opportunity to participate in a 7 month "school spacewalk" with the artwork, pictures, signatures and voices on-board. And the "super-sleuth" ham radio operator extraordinaires were able to pull a significant amount of data from the satellite despite of its low signal strength. And my congratulations to the students and adults who won the Chicken Little contest!! Next for SuitSat-1--the commemorative certificates/diplomas. And at the AMSAT-NA symposium/ARISS meeting we will discuss our thoughts and plans for a potential SuitSat-2. Stay tuned! 73, Frank H. Bauer, KA3HDO AMSAT V.P. for Human Spaceflight Programs ARISS International Chairman [ANS Thanks Frank Bauer, KA3HDO, for the above information] EX/ SB SAT @ AMSAT $ANS-253.06 ARISS STATUS AMSAT News Service Bulletin 253.06 From AMSAT HQ SILVER SPRING, MD. September 10, 2006 To All RADIO AMATEURS BID: $ANS-253.06 ARISS Status September 4, 2006 1. Tennessee School Contact Successful On Monday, August 28, students from Northeast Middle School in Clarksville, Tennessee had the opportunity to speak with the ISS. Jeff Williams, KD5TVQ, answered 19 questions asked by ten children via the telebridge station VK4KHZ in Australia. Jeff Williams’ niece was one of the children selected to participate in the session. A local paper covered the contact. Twenty-one connections, including 3 repeater nodes, from 7 countries were made to the EchoLink AMSAT (101 377) and JK1ZRW (277 208) servers. Audio was also fed into the IRLP Discovery Reflector 9010, and was webcast courtesy of Verizon Conferencing. The Leaf-Chronicle wrote a story on the event entitled, “Students make long-distance call to astronaut in outer space.” See: http://www.theleafchronicle.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060829/NEWS01/… 2. ARRL Article on Japanese Contact ARRL covered the Sendai Yoshinari School contact in its article, “Junior High Schoolers in Japan Speak with Astronaut via Ham Radio.” See: http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2006/09/01/3/?nc=1 3. School Contact Mentioned on Space.ref The Space.ref website has a brief entry on the Teven Tintenbar School in Australia. See paragraph 19 on: http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=21694 4. Options to Speak with Friends, Family from Space Include Ham Radio The Canadian Space Agency web site describes the options available to the ISS crew members for contacting friends and family on Earth. Ham radio is one of the options mentioned. See: http://www.space.gc.ca/asc/eng/astronauts/living_relaxing.asp 5. ARISS TIM Held The ARISS team held a Technical Interchange Meeting August 28 -31 at Goddard Space Flight Center. ARISS Delegate Sergey Samburov was able to attend the discussions which covered ARISS hardware and software, SuitSat-2 design and development, and school operations. [ANS thanks Carol, KB3LKI, for the above information] /EX In addition to regular membership, AMSAT offers membership in the President's Club. Members of the President's Club, as sustaining donors to AMSAT Project Funds, will be eligible to receive additional benefits. Application forms are available from the AMSAT Office. 73, This week's ANS Editor, Dee Interdonato, NB2F nb2f at amsat dot org _____________________________________________

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S band or any backup?
by G0MRF＠aol.com 10 Sep '06

10 Sep '06

On the subject of a parallel S band TX. That may or may not be simple depending on what else is available inside Eagle. But in any event it should not require switches. About two years ago when there was a similar period of outrage on the BB, the hot topic was the wisdom of flying an untried or tested SDX transponder without a switchable conventional 'linear' backup. I beleieve it was Bob who announced "There will be no conventional linear transponder in Eagle" I was very pleased to see Rick, W2GPS, leap quickly into the debate and reassure everyone that the complicated DSP + logic in the SDX would be backed up by conventional linear electronics. 'just in case' In a recent mail the UV transponder has been referred to as having unbelievably high audio quality. An apparent and very well justified comment on the quality of the SDX. What I can't recall seeing, is any reference to any fall back position of a linear system as a back up. It's worth remembering that 3 - 5 years time will be the peak of the sunspot cycle. High solar activity, or an unfortunate error with the orbital change burn as AO-10, could result in the satellite receiving a great deal of radiation. It would be good to know that the linear backup plans have not been quietly filed in the waste paper basket. If it hasn't, then a parallel transmitter for S or any other band is very simple to implement. Just split the IF, wire the other transmitter in parallel. 5W to an S band patch or whatever, and control it by turning the DC power line on or off. S band amplifiers no longer need to run in class A with 30% efficiencies, so an up to date class AB design would not be a large burden on the power budget. I suppose my quiet concern is not really the lack of S band, but; If the SDX or 2m TX fails, what is left in the current design to provide a service to the 90+% who will not have, or are not interested in C band? Good engineering is important, but planing for the unexpected is vital. Incidentally. It occurs to me that a disadvantage of having one major UV transponder operating 24/7 is that while that concept removes the need for complicated scheduling it will occupy 100kHz or so of the 2m band permanently which may not be totally desirable in a limited 200kHz bandwidth. Presumably with Eagle 2 and 3 under design / construction at the time of launch they will have differnt bands. - Maybe 2390 - 2400 ish Enjoying the debate David G0MRF

1 0

S-Band Down Link P3E/Eagle
by WILLIAMS MICHAEL 10 Sep '06

10 Sep '06

One thing is certain, P3E will provide a real world test of S-band down link capability. It will then be perfectly clear if the decision to delete it from the Eagle was a wise choice. Mike K9QHO AMSAT 33589

6 6

HT Mindset
by sco＠sco-inc.com 10 Sep '06

10 Sep '06

HTs are nice. I have been reading about the plans for Eagle and how it must serve the HT and CC&R community of hams. Thats fine, when Eagle is close to Earth HT users can work it. But when Eagle is 40,000 km out in space that is when the larger tracking antenna arrays should come into their own. That lets both camps (HTs and tracking arrays) use and enjoy the next HEO satellite. CC&R restrictions should be taken care of with new state laws like PRB-1 to allow Hams to have antennas on their property that asist in case of natural disasters and in the war with Islamic Facists. If the goal is to launch 3 HEO sats over a 13 year period that means design and build one style spaceframe then change the insides as more modern technology is developed over the time span waiting for launch. P3E seems to be using a tried and true spaceframe. Why did Eagle need to be different? If there are plans for a 2nd P3E #2 or #3 that would interest me more than Eagle #1 with unproven ideas. Let most of the experimentation take place in the ground stations, not in space (at least not until we can send a repairman to space to fix it). Can't PSK31 work thru a HEO using very small V and U band antennas for one thing? Let the digital crowd do that and let the SSB folks use their tracking arrays to work voice on V and U and yes even S band if the users want to try it (thru the future interference). Maybe by then we will be using digital voice with techniques to work thru the interference on S band. Are we just going to give up and move to a higher band everytime a few commercial users get on one of our bands? Why? It may take 13 years to design, build and launch the first Eagle. You can not launch 3 Eagles in 13 years with the way you are going now. Just a few thoughts from a ham satellite user. Les W4SCO

2 1

S-band on Eagle
by Jim Sanford 10 Sep '06

10 Sep '06

Ladies and gentlemen: I have been reading the comments regarding the Eagle S-band downlink decision. I herewith respond to some. All along, the Eagle project has put a premium on hard science, rigorous peer review, and dispassionate analysis. All along we knew there might or would be some changes to what we've been planning. With several other issues on the move or decided, we took a few days in late June to hammer out, based on science, the transponder situation. We did multiple, independent link analyses, and all came to the same conclusion. We validated interference predictions with measurements that have been taken. The conclusion is that S-band is marginally useful as a downlink today (unusable in many locations), and by the time Eagle is launched, and through it's lifetime, will be unusable. Personally, I do not like this decision. I have S-band equipment that I was looking forward to using. Personally, I can live with this decision, and defend it to myself, let alone anyone else, because I am convinced that it is technically sound. As one of you commented this evening, AO-40 wasn't exactly a rock crusher on S-band. It worked, and adequately, at least on CW, but was not great. As I reflect on my personal AO-40 experiences, I now understand that there are 2 reasons for my disappointment. Local noise was one, and transponder distortion was another -- the latter will be corrected by SDX. S-band on AO-40, by necessity not choice, got many of us out of our comfort zones and convinced us that microwaves really aren't that hard. Let's enter the realm of S up and C down with that same realization. REMEMBER THAT AMSAT IS DEVELOPING THE GROUND STATION ALONG WITH THE SPACE SEGMENT. You will not be left on your own to develop ground equipment. You will not be asked to mortgage your house; affordability by the masses is a key component of the design for the entire system. Comparison with AO-51 is an "apples and oranges" thing. The path losses are much different. FM is very unlike CW/SSB or wideband digital modes. Remember that a goal of the Eagle system is that everything is on all the time. No more matrix switches, no more schedules. We need up and downlinks to be useful throughout the entire orbit. Why did we "regress" to U/V? For one reason, many of you asked for it, and some of us worked hard to somehow incorporate that capability in response to member's desires. The foot in the door was the utility of a V-band beacon in case everything else goes sour. The forcing function was as follows. A goal of Eagle has always been some kind of hand-held or jump bag portable ground station capability for entry into the emergency area while the tsunami waters are receeding and the hurricane winds are down to gale force. Many of us thought we could take advantage of the gain in small antennas to do this on the microwaves. Rigorous link analysis led us to the conclusion that the best place to do this is U/V -- both from a RF/DC power perspective, and from a link standpoint. This leads to the digital and "traditiona"l transponder package for U/V, implemented in SDX. Why not also include a (switchable) S-band downlink in parallel with the V-band? Remember, no switches. Also, we run into an antenna space problem. We've already increased the size of the spacecraft from where we started, and for many reasons, do NOT want to build something as large as AO-40. A couple of you have commented this evening that perusing EaglePedia has not revealed the details of the decisions. That is because, while Bob McGwier (N4HY) and I have been working on the report of the meeting, it is not public. We've been working hard on it since June, in and around other AMSAT, ham radio, and life events. Shortly after I push send on this message, I'll begin my final look at that document prior to public release. Before I go spend time with the spousal unit TONIGHT, I will finish it and publish it. I will send an announcement on the amsat-bb that it is public. To read the report, go to the EaglePedia main page, and select project index. From there, select Team and Meetings, and there will be several options, not all public. The San Diego meeting minutes will be obvious and public. Several of you have commented, "If S-band is unusable, why is it flying on P3E?" Fair question, but I can't answer for AMSAT-DL. I DO know that the P3E system design is considerably older and farther along than Eagle. Eagle design decisions were made based on the best information in June of 2006. Aspects of this discussion have been worthy of /dev/null. More aspects of this discussion have raised valid points and reasonable questions, deserving of response, which is why I've been composing this note for the last four hours or so. A few have raised the old allegation of the builders doing what they want, without regard to users needs. This is not true. While the desire to advance the state of the art (part of amateur radio's justification for existence and allocation of valuable spectrum) leads to enthusiasm and study of potentially useful new techniques, this desire had no impact on our analysis-based decisions. We started with requirements and services, and explored what would deliver. I thank all of you for your interest and support. Your Eagle team is working hard to develop a system that will serve our needs, as well as advance the state of the art. As promised, we are making decisions based on sound, peer-reviewed science, not anybody's opinions or desires. Please read the report, study the spreadsheets, download the excel file and play with it. If you can, make your own measurements and put those numbers into the spreadsheet. I think you'll understand how these decisions were reached. After contemplating the report, send me your questions. I'll either respond or forward to he who can best respond. Another fundamental tenet of the Eagle project is openness, so you have a right to a response to a rational question. Please recognize that we're volunteers too, and subject to the realities of day jobs, families, and a real life. Response may not be instantaneous. Thanks again and very 73, Jim James A. Sanford, PE Eagle Project Manager wb4gcs(a)amsat.org

8 7

AMSAT BOD Elections...
by Roger Kolakowski 10 Sep '06

10 Sep '06

I have only one suggestion... Vote with your minds, not your hearts... Roger WA1KAT

1 0

Re: Sband and Eagle: an appeal for a higher level discussion
by Joe Leikhim 10 Sep '06

10 Sep '06

This thread so reminds me of the past pleas for more mode B birds to replace AO-10 and AO-13. The AMSAT board response was that the VHF and UHF bands were getting noisy, illegal VHF and legal UHF interlopers were showing up and for the membership to embrace microwaves and build S band and L band stations. Well I am one who has such a station and while I would love certainly to see mode B, come back, I am also fully equipped to excercise some S and L band experiments. I can understand that many households are polluted with 2.4 GHz toys, mine is. My solution will be to pull the plug on that stuff during operation and to utilize a medium size dish for the downlink (Note: those grid panels can't discriminate as well as a bigger dish, and secondly the IC-970 noise blanker works on some types of S band ISM interference). Please someone tell me that we can work L and S band modes with HEO and linear transponders, I would become so much more interested in the hobby! -- Joe Leikhim K4SAT "The RFI-EMI-GUY"© "Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason? For if it prosper, none dare call it treason." "Follow The Money" ;-P

8 7

P3E page in english
by dave 10 Sep '06

10 Sep '06

Hello All, Just saw that the p3e-satellite.org page has the english translations working. Now I can start understanding all the references to Euros. One question - on the Join-in page under the "more about the raffle" heading, does it mean that to get any info on the status of P3E I will have to pay for a pixel? 73 de David VK5DG

1 0

C C Rider
by Carl Yaffey 10 Sep '06

10 Sep '06

Will someone please explain what "C C Rider" means for a newbie? Thanks and 73, Carl Carl Yaffey K8NU Banjo, guitar, bass, mandolin lessons. Pro Tools recording studio. carl_yaffeyNO_SPAM(a)yahoo.com. 614 268 6353, Columbus OH http://www.carl-yaffey.com

2 1

dichroic plate
by Geoff 09 Sep '06

09 Sep '06

Hi guys, It appears that future satelllite operations are likely to require operations on multiple microwave bands. Has anyone looked into the design and construction of dichroic plates suitable for amateur band operations? Mode S/X on P3E comes to mind as one place that might need them? For me the mechanical aspects do not present problems. Design does present problems as I do not have the test equipment for ¨cut and try¨ :-( . There are references on descanso.jpl.nasa.gov . 73 de Geoff vk2tfg.

1 0

SuitSat-1 Return
by Frank H. Bauer 09 Sep '06

09 Sep '06

Masa, I sent this to the SAREX reflector, since it is human spaceflight related. But I will post here since the question was raised. 73, Frank, KA3HDO All, On September 7, 2006 at 16:00 GMT, SuitSat-1 re-entered about 1400 km south-southwest of Western Australia. For more details, including the winners of the Chicken Little Contest, please go to: http://www.amsat.org/amsat-new/ariss/suitsatContest.php I want to thank all who made SuitSat-1 the phenomenal event that it was. Your hard work and dedication paid off. In just 3 weeks the SuitSat team developed and delivered a safe satellite system that has gained the confidence of the international space agencies. The web and PR team were able to garner unprecedented press coverage of our ham/educational outreach activity, including over 9 million hits on www.suitsat.org in February. Students around the world had the opportunity to participate in a 7 month "school spacewalk" with the artwork, pictures, signatures and voices on-board. And the "super-sleuth" ham radio operator extraordinaires were able to pull a significant amount of data from the satellite despite of its low signal strength. And my congratulations to the students and adults who won the Chicken Little contest!! Next for SuitSat-1--the commemorative certificates/diplomas. And at the AMSAT-NA symposium/ARISS meeting we will discuss our thoughts and plans for a potential SuitSat-2. Stay tuned! 73, Frank H. Bauer, KA3HDO AMSAT V.P. for Human Spaceflight Programs ARISS International Chairman Message: 4 Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2006 12:19:56 +0900 From: Masahiro Arai <m-arai(a)a.email.ne.jp> Subject: [amsat-bb] SuitSat-1 return To: amsat-bb(a)amsat.org Message-ID: <200609090319.AA01511(a)giga.a.email.ne.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Alititude of SuitSat-1 is decreasing drastically. Its alititude at 1330z 8th Sep was about 150km. SuitSat-1 must have returned the Earth. Many thanks, SuitSat-1!! Masa JN1GKZ Tokyo Japan

1 0

Posat
by Vincenzo Mone 09 Sep '06

09 Sep '06

Hi to the list, is there anybody which has heard the POSAT in the last days? It is a while that I cannot hear it anymore. Today I've tried to update the keplerians but I still do not hear it. Anybody has heard it? Thanks 73 de Enzo IK8OZV EasyLog 5 BetaTester EasyLog PDA BetaTester WinBollet BetaTester D.C.I. CheckPoint Regione Campania Skype: ik8ozv8520 *************************************** ***** GSM +39 338 9749786 ***** ***** SMS +39 338 9749786 ***** ***** FAX +39 328 7244294 ***** *** 2nd e-mail: vimone(a)tin.it *** ***************************************

1 0

Using TH-7DA As a Crossband link
by Mike Hooles 09 Sep '06

09 Sep '06

Hi guys, I have a non satellite problem and you all know this radio better than I do. Is there any way of using the TH-7DA as a crossband link on FM, even using an external cable ? I cannot find anything in the handbook. Regards Mike G3LGR 33643

5 4

S-band on Eagle
by yokshs＠sbcglobal.net 09 Sep '06

09 Sep '06

Hi, I've been following the thread about Eagle, and like many others I am sad to hear that S-band will not fly. I do look forward to working S-band on P3E, and hope the Eagle team will reconsider, and fly an S transmitter, even if it is considered a backup or emergency transmitter. I understand why the team wants to drop it, but I have a feeling that if we DON'T fly it, we'll wish that we had. Sort of putting all the eggs in one basket to depend on U/v to work for the life of the bird, isn't it? Remember AO-40 - I never heard the S1 TX, but aren't we all glad there were two S transmitters aboard? I DO look forward to working U/v on Eagle, but I doubt that my budget will allow experimenting with new modes such as C-band anytime soon. With this in mind, as far as I'm concerned, Eagle will be a U/v bird only. While I won't argue that the 2.4 GHz spectrum is a 'sewer' in some areas, I've only had serious QRM on one occasion. The radar pulses or spread spectrum noise was cured by my radio's Noise Blanker. One evening while copying AO-40, the bird's signal dropped completely off the S-meter. It was like my dish had fallen off the roof or something! Seems a neighbor down the street got a new 2.4 GHz analog cordless telephone, and (you guessed it) she was the dreaded full duty-cycle type - a high-school age girl! Her phone must have broken or was returned to the store soon after (WHEW!) I never got a chance to DF it, as I only heard it the one time, but was in absolute horror at the possibility of losing my S-band RX. For those of you that doubt a non-licensed device can swamp your new downconverter, believe me, my AIDC 3731 could hear nothing else. On a related subject, seems like I read somewhere that some C-band experimenters were considering using s-band units for the final conversion from 5 GHz? In other words, the C-band converter would only need to convert from 5 GHz to 2 GHz, and let the surplus s-band units do the rest? Anyone know any more about this subject? Another use for S-band converters might be for RF linking purposes? A small transmitter and helix or dish at each end should work well for control links or linking repeater sites maybe? 73, Kyle Yoksh KØKN Olathe, Kansas Amsat # 35249 VUCC Satellite # 150

2 1

Hawaii activity
by Tim Tapio 09 Sep '06

09 Sep '06

Hi all, I'm planning a trip to Hawaii (Oahu) for a few days in January..how much activity is there on AO-51? I'd like to bring a handheld along, see if I can work someone while I'm there. 73 de Tim, K4SHF

2 1

Not too late
by MARTHA SARAGOVITZ 09 Sep '06

09 Sep '06

If you have not mailed your AMSAT ballot, you still have time. Ballots MUST arrive at the AMSAT office by Friday, September 15th. Martha Saragovitz AMSAT Manager

1 0

Re: S band downlink on P3E
by sco＠sco-inc.com 09 Sep '06

09 Sep '06

> I do not wish to duplicate that >which was designed in 1980 for a complete different era. The phase 3 >program is an engineering marvel. It is essentially one man's absolute >genius (Karl) incarnated and captured to varying degrees by the rest of >us as the supporting cast. But I do not believe it is appropriate for >2010-2020 given the launch environment, the RF environment, and the >legal environment. The frame is too small to support the antennas >required to use multiple satellites even to support 7/24 operations. >We need a larger frame to support the phased arrays to meet the 70% >availability and on and on and on. Ok that makes sense. How does the size of P3E compare to AO-40? Could we design a larger version of the P3E spaceframe that would fit into the mounting ring used for AO-40? if so would that give us a bird large enough to do what you think needs to be done, for the future needs of the sat community? We know that the P3E (AO10/13) shape seemed to work as I hope P3E will also work. Would not a large version work on the same principals? Les W4SCO

1 0

SO-50 Not Heard at
by Eric H Christensen 09 Sep '06

09 Sep '06

Just took the arrow and the HT out to the driveway to work SO-50 and didn't hear anything. I attempted to activate the bird numerous times but still nothing. Did anyone hear/work the bird on this pass? 73s, Eric KF4OTN

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Re: 2.4 GHz Comments and Proposals
by Bob Bruninga 09 Sep '06

09 Sep '06

> ... if the inference problem at 2.4 GHz is as severe > as you repeatedly state - how come the cordless > phones and WiFi systems don't drown themselves > out an collapse with their own sea of mutual > interference? Because they are less than 150 feet away from their transmitters. And that is 74 dB stronger than a signal coming in from 40,000 km away... 74 dB is something like 25,000,000 times stronger... Bob, WB4APR

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Re: want this
by Matt 09 Sep '06

09 Sep '06

> >The above was gleened from all the lateset gnashing. Is or does >anyone know of work being done of 5ghz receive systems? I have a >bunch of old C band receivers and C band LNA/LNB a 12 foot TVRO. I >am not and engineer, but I can follow directions. Just get me >started I would like to get ahead of the curve. 5ghz will be in >our future, ready or not! >73 Bob W7LRD >Seattle Well grab one and have a play with it. See what you come up with. I have converted 12 GHz sat LNBs to 10 GHz by super gluing an extra puc onto it's exiting puc, to change the Lo to 9 GHz. Played around with the LNBs pre-amp and filters by cutting/adding pcb tracks. No reason the same can't be done on C band LNB. You will be moving the LO about 2 GHz might be bit of stretch but it's going to be fun to find out. I did read a page about moding 12 GHz LNBs for 10 GHz ATV. Here is one page that gives step by step mods and there are a couple of others around http://www.qsl.net/pa3gco/zelfbouw/blauwkap/bluecap.html I have also seen the same done for a 2.4 GHz transmit converter on drake type downconverter which I can't find the page for at the moment. C band LNBs are cheap to get and there are heaps of them out there. So let's get at it!

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Mode L/S Equip for P3E
by sco＠sco-inc.com 09 Sep '06

09 Sep '06

I have an Ft-847 setup for working sat. What are some ideas for adapting an L band uplink. My S band downconverter has a 2m IF. Les W4SCO

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FS: Gulf Alpha EasySat Dual Band Yagi *SOLD*
by John Zaruba Jr 09 Sep '06

09 Sep '06

Thanks to everyone for their interest and the use of the bandwidth. 73, John AA2BN AMSAT 22683

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want this
by w7lrd＠comcast.net 09 Sep '06

09 Sep '06

On a related subject, seems like I read somewhere that some C-band experimenters were considering using s-band units for the final conversion from 5 GHz? In other words, the C-band converter would only need to convert from 5 GHz to 2 GHz, and let the surplus s-band units do the rest? Anyone know any more about this subject? The above was gleened from all the lateset gnashing. Is or does anyone know of work being done of 5ghz receive systems? I have a bunch of old C band receivers and C band LNA/LNB a 12 foot TVRO. I am not and engineer, but I can follow directions. Just get me started I would like to get ahead of the curve. 5ghz will be in our future, ready or not! 73 Bob W7LRD Seattle

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