November 2013 - AMSAT-BB - mailman.amsat.org

FUNcube-1 Dashboard software "Premier Edition" just released
by Graham Shirville 14 Nov '13

14 Nov '13

Hi All, In advance of the FUNcube-1 launch next week on November 21st at 07:10:11 UTC, this first release of the FUNcube Dashboard User Interface software is now available for download here: http://funcube.org.uk/working-documents/funcube-telemetry-dashboard This software, when used with a FUNcube Dongle or other SSB capable VHF receiver, will decode and display all the 58 telemetry channels, all the on-board status flags and also the Fitter messages from the spacecraft. The FUNcube Dashboard will also enable users to upload the telemetry they are receiving to a central Data Warehouse so that others around the world can see what is happening on board. A fully illustrated set of installation and operating guidance notes can also be downloaded from that page. Additionally we also have some IQ and audio files available here that can be used for testing. http://funcube.org.uk/working-documents/telemetry-examples/ Full details of the telemetry format, which has considerable heritage from AO-40, can be found here.http://funcubetest2.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/fun_downlink_data_draf… We are very grateful to our software development team for their efforts in developing the Dashboard and we look forward to your feedback. Please let us have questions and experiences at the FUNcube forum at http://forum.funcube.org.uk/viewforum.php?f=3 best 73 Graham G3VZV

1 0

I am tired of D-star thread/argument
by Tom Gentry 14 Nov '13

14 Nov '13

I don't have it, don't want it, don't want to hear about it. Lets talk about the new satellites going up. Tom K5VOU On 11/13/2013 2:00 PM, amsat-bb-request(a)amsat.org wrote: > Send AMSAT-BB mailing list submissions to > amsat-bb(a)amsat.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > amsat-bb-request(a)amsat.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > amsat-bb-owner(a)amsat.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of AMSAT-BB digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: International Designators (Ken Ernandes) > 2. Re: D STAR is here to stay (Joe) > 3. Re: D STAR is here to stay (B J) > 4. Re: D STAR is here to stay (R Oler) > 5. Re: D STAR is here to stay (Rich/wa4bue) > 6. Re: D STAR is here to stay (Gordon JC Pearce) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 07:34:30 -0500 > From: Ken Ernandes <n2wwd(a)mindspring.com> > To: Graham Shirville <g.shirville(a)btinternet.com> > Cc: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb(a)amsat.org> > Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: International Designators > Message-ID: <272D661F-0A68-420E-8F98-8E8682D6698E(a)mindspring.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > It shouldn't disrupt systems. The specification for the international designator allows for one to three (3) suffix characters (i.e., A through ZZZ). > > 73, Ken N2WWD > > Sent from my iPad > > > > On Nov 13, 2013, at 5:44 AM, "Graham Shirville" <g.shirville(a)btinternet.com> wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> At least one of the forthcoming launches is planning to having more than 26 objects being deployed. I think this is the first time that this has occurred. >> >> Our TLEs include these references. I understand that after Z is used, the sequence will be AA, AB, AC, AD, etc. >> >> Question - will this extra digit disrupt the existing systems we have for distribution of this data or when importing the files into the various prediction programmes that we all use? >> >> I may be worrying unnecessarily but ..........just in case! >> >> thanks >> >> Graham >> G3VZV >> _______________________________________________ >> Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. >> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! >> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 08:16:44 -0600 > From: Joe <nss(a)mwt.net> > To: amsat-bb(a)amsat.org > Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: D STAR is here to stay > Message-ID: <528389CC.3000005(a)mwt.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > I agree on that also. > > Now I'm not picking on them here. But I am a member of Four local > Amateur Radio Clubs. And have been an Amateur since 1975 and have seen > this "Hobby" change a lot through the years. And in all four clubs 90% > of the newly licensed get into this Hobby now, through the Public > service aspect of the hobby. IE: Skywarn, communications during > disasters, support like in parades etc. While there is nothing wrong > with this. But these newcomers do not seem to get the thrill of just > getting on the air, and throw out a CQ just to see who comes back. Just > for the thrill of the unknown. And that is sad. > > I feel that Amateur Radio is more to them as the Service part of the > Amateur Radio Service. Not the experimenting and exploring part. > > Joe WB9SBD > Sig > The Original Rolling Ball Clock > Idle Tyme > Idle-Tyme.com > http://www.idle-tyme.com > On 11/12/2013 10:34 PM, Donald Jacob wrote: >> Gordon, >> If you use that logic, then why use amateur radio at all. Just use your >> cell phone and you can talk to anyone, anywhere (that will answer!). >> >> Hobby, learn, have fun, meet others with the same interests etc.... >> Guess something got lost along the way! >> >> WB5EKU >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 12:24 PM, Gordon JC Pearce <gordonjcp(a)gjcp.net>wrote: >> >>> On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 06:57:39PM +0000, wa4hfn(a)comcast.net wrote: >>>> I would like to see the DSTAR users pick a REFLECTOR and use it as a >>> state side intercomm. How cool would that be? Some one asking the group , >>> hey who was that in fm-- or CN--or what was the call of the guy in DN--. >>> Look at how we could all help each other while working the birds. >>> >>> Why not just use your phone? Far more reliable, far better coverage, far >>> better battery life and a tiny fraction of the cost... >>> >>> -- >>> Gordonjcp MM0YEQ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. >>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! >>> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. >> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! >> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb >> >> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 15:40:59 +0000 > From: B J <va6bmj(a)gmail.com> > To: Joe <nss(a)mwt.net> > Cc: amsat-bb(a)amsat.org > Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: D STAR is here to stay > Message-ID: > <CAP7QzkODbgtcmEUvYzM_r8EJkj1BQ8BWk0Zgpp0Vq_h1O+VY-A(a)mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On 11/13/13, Joe <nss(a)mwt.net> wrote: >> I agree on that also. >> >> Now I'm not picking on them here. But I am a member of Four local >> Amateur Radio Clubs. And have been an Amateur since 1975 and have seen >> this "Hobby" change a lot through the years. And in all four clubs 90% >> of the newly licensed get into this Hobby now, through the Public >> service aspect of the hobby. IE: Skywarn, communications during >> disasters, support like in parades etc. While there is nothing wrong >> with this. But these newcomers do not seem to get the thrill of just >> getting on the air, and throw out a CQ just to see who comes back. Just >> for the thrill of the unknown. And that is sad. >> >> I feel that Amateur Radio is more to them as the Service part of the >> Amateur Radio Service. Not the experimenting and exploring part. > I often get a similar reaction when I talk about amateur radio, > particularly from younger people. They can't quite grasp why I'd want > to put together a station and, perhaps, talk with someone when there > are easier ways of doing that. Even if I don't have any contacts, I > like to find out just what the hardware can do and how far my signal > can go. It's fun to know that I can reach a satellite that's, say, > somewhere over the Arctic Ocean north of Siberia putting only 5 W into > my Arrow yagi. > > Many peope, I suppose, have become accustomed to the plug-and-play > aspect of electronic devices and expect to have clear 2-way > conversations every time. Tinkering with something in order to hear > or be heard is likely something they wouldn't like or would be too > bothersome to them. > > Then again, my interest in radio began as an SWL while I was still in > high school over 40 years ago and I listened to broadcasts from, as > the song says, "far away places with strange-sounding names". It was > fun bragging to my classmates that I listened to, say, Radio > Australia, not that any of them paid much attention to it. > > 73s > > Bernhard VA6BMJ@ DO33FL > > <snip> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 22:38:32 +0600 > From: R Oler <orbitjet(a)hotmail.com> > To: B J <va6bmj(a)gmail.com> > Cc: Joe <nss(a)mwt.net>, "amsat-bb(a)amsat.org" <amsat-bb(a)amsat.org> > Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: D STAR is here to stay > Message-ID: <BLU406-EAS204CFF2A8B652BD0DBE2C3FD6F90(a)phx.gbl> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > in large manner chat rooms and the like have taken the place for some of the CQ...Robert WB5MZO/S2 > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Nov 13, 2013, at 9:51 PM, "B J" <va6bmj(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> On 11/13/13, Joe <nss(a)mwt.net> wrote: >>> I agree on that also. >>> >>> Now I'm not picking on them here. But I am a member of Four local >>> Amateur Radio Clubs. And have been an Amateur since 1975 and have seen >>> this "Hobby" change a lot through the years. And in all four clubs 90% >>> of the newly licensed get into this Hobby now, through the Public >>> service aspect of the hobby. IE: Skywarn, communications during >>> disasters, support like in parades etc. While there is nothing wrong >>> with this. But these newcomers do not seem to get the thrill of just >>> getting on the air, and throw out a CQ just to see who comes back. Just >>> for the thrill of the unknown. And that is sad. >>> >>> I feel that Amateur Radio is more to them as the Service part of the >>> Amateur Radio Service. Not the experimenting and exploring part. >> I often get a similar reaction when I talk about amateur radio, >> particularly from younger people. They can't quite grasp why I'd want >> to put together a station and, perhaps, talk with someone when there >> are easier ways of doing that. Even if I don't have any contacts, I >> like to find out just what the hardware can do and how far my signal >> can go. It's fun to know that I can reach a satellite that's, say, >> somewhere over the Arctic Ocean north of Siberia putting only 5 W into >> my Arrow yagi. >> >> Many peope, I suppose, have become accustomed to the plug-and-play >> aspect of electronic devices and expect to have clear 2-way >> conversations every time. Tinkering with something in order to hear >> or be heard is likely something they wouldn't like or would be too >> bothersome to them. >> >> Then again, my interest in radio began as an SWL while I was still in >> high school over 40 years ago and I listened to broadcasts from, as >> the song says, "far away places with strange-sounding names". It was >> fun bragging to my classmates that I listened to, say, Radio >> Australia, not that any of them paid much attention to it. >> >> 73s >> >> Bernhard VA6BMJ@ DO33FL >> >> <snip> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. >> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! >> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 13:49:39 -0500 > From: "Rich/wa4bue" <richard.siff(a)verizon.net> > To: "R Oler" <orbitjet(a)hotmail.com>, "B J" <va6bmj(a)gmail.com>, > <amsat-bb(a)amsat.org> > Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: D STAR is here to stay > Message-ID: <EADB84786F104E0183B83D3AF7E6C0DF@RichardPC> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; > reply-type=original > > Hi all, > > I agree with what is being said. > > The K4AMG MARC works with you in a VO TECH center Broadcast Radio > Class -WFOS FM 88.7, for over 10 years now. You can Google the station 24/7 > and listen to live stream. When the students are in class they are on the > air. We are also in the early stages of assisting with an electronics > class in the Chesapeake, VA Public Schools. > We see teens all of the time. Today most of the teens we see kind of know > what a screw driver and a pair of pliers are, but never heard of a ratchet > and socket. > Case in point: > > Last May we gave the teens assembly instructions and tools so they could > assemble our YAGI antennas for OSCAR communications, and install the rotor - > in general get the antennas ready for a OSCAR pass. > We had to show them how to use the tools! Walk them through each step of > the instructions as they texted to their friends this NOVEL experience. > > You might had heard us on FO 29, W4FOS, the schools club station. > > We have also worked with "BOE BOT" robot in the school. It requires > moderate assembly. Assembly was a problem for them - programming went > fairly well (circles. squares etc). > > On a good note a few years ago we bought RAMSEY FM Radio receiver kits and > as class projects we taught them how to solder and in less then 3 classes 2 > hours 6 hours they put the radios together, and with less then,, and hour > they used a scope and debugged the one radio that did not work, so they can > do hands on when they want to. > > What I am finding is shops (hand on stuff) is disappearing and to work in > trades, the teens are now required to take 2 year JR. College to be > certified. > > Back to class, for many years we have put the students on HF during School > Club Roundup, and they get insulted and jammed by older hams that own HF > frequencies. We tried to place them on "IRLP" and around here any way some > of the old guys are so bitter they are using bad language and distasteful > conversations, not that the teens don't know and use this language, but not > in the class room, so we don't go there. > Even one of our largest clubs in the area don't want to work with teens. > > This year we will try to introduce ISS data and SSTV to the class. By the > way we can not go SSTV on HF, most of the pictures are not suitable for the > class room. > > In short it is difficult to give teens a full view of amateur radio when > some of the idiots on the air and are just that real idiots. This part of > the same discussion "Ethics" on the School Club Roundup users group ... > Enough Venting. > > And finding volunteer Elmers to teach in the class room, very difficult, as > most hams of the 80s and beyond know nothing but how to operate their > radios, can not even make their antennas. The exception are those wonderful > guys that worked in electronics and communications in the service or their > day to day work. God Bless them. Our newest and best resource for Elmers > are members of the Society of Broadcast Engineers Chapter 54, they have > taken time off to teach in the class room. > > You can check out our home page at K4AMG.org, to get an idea about what we > are trying to do. Please give us some input about what you think we are > doing right or wrong. > > God Bless > > Rich > W4BUE > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "R Oler" <orbitjet(a)hotmail.com> > To: "B J" <va6bmj(a)gmail.com> > Cc: "Joe" <nss(a)mwt.net>; <amsat-bb(a)amsat.org> > Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 11:38 AM > Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: D STAR is here to stay > > >> in large manner chat rooms and the like have taken the place for some of >> the CQ...Robert WB5MZO/S2 >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On Nov 13, 2013, at 9:51 PM, "B J" <va6bmj(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> On 11/13/13, Joe <nss(a)mwt.net> wrote: >>>> I agree on that also. >>>> >>>> Now I'm not picking on them here. But I am a member of Four local >>>> Amateur Radio Clubs. And have been an Amateur since 1975 and have seen >>>> this "Hobby" change a lot through the years. And in all four clubs 90% >>>> of the newly licensed get into this Hobby now, through the Public >>>> service aspect of the hobby. IE: Skywarn, communications during >>>> disasters, support like in parades etc. While there is nothing wrong >>>> with this. But these newcomers do not seem to get the thrill of just >>>> getting on the air, and throw out a CQ just to see who comes back. Just >>>> for the thrill of the unknown. And that is sad. >>>> >>>> I feel that Amateur Radio is more to them as the Service part of the >>>> Amateur Radio Service. Not the experimenting and exploring part. >>> I often get a similar reaction when I talk about amateur radio, >>> particularly from younger people. They can't quite grasp why I'd want >>> to put together a station and, perhaps, talk with someone when there >>> are easier ways of doing that. Even if I don't have any contacts, I >>> like to find out just what the hardware can do and how far my signal >>> can go. It's fun to know that I can reach a satellite that's, say, >>> somewhere over the Arctic Ocean north of Siberia putting only 5 W into >>> my Arrow yagi. >>> >>> Many peope, I suppose, have become accustomed to the plug-and-play >>> aspect of electronic devices and expect to have clear 2-way >>> conversations every time. Tinkering with something in order to hear >>> or be heard is likely something they wouldn't like or would be too >>> bothersome to them. >>> >>> Then again, my interest in radio began as an SWL while I was still in >>> high school over 40 years ago and I listened to broadcasts from, as >>> the song says, "far away places with strange-sounding names". It was >>> fun bragging to my classmates that I listened to, say, Radio >>> Australia, not that any of them paid much attention to it. >>> >>> 73s >>> >>> Bernhard VA6BMJ@ DO33FL >>> >>> <snip> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. >>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite >>> program! >>> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb >> _______________________________________________ >> Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. >> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! >> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 19:32:54 +0000 > From: Gordon JC Pearce <gordonjcp(a)gjcp.net> > To: amsat-bb(a)amsat.org > Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: D STAR is here to stay > Message-ID: <20131113193254.GA28908(a)gjcp.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 01:49:39PM -0500, Rich/wa4bue wrote: >> This year we will try to introduce ISS data and SSTV to the class. >> By the way we can not go SSTV on HF, most of the pictures are not >> suitable for the class room. >> > You know, they're teenagers. Whether or not you agree with what *some* (a small minority) of SSTVers transmit, I think there's a fair chance they've seen swimsuit pictures already. > > Good luck with getting the ISS to transmit any usable SSTV. The past few times it's all been a bit broken. Maybe we can devise a nice solid SSTV subsystem to take up? >

5 4

Call for Symposium Photos
by JoAnne Maenpaa 14 Nov '13

14 Nov '13

Hello Everyone, I would appreciate receiving selected photos, or a link to your on-line albums for photos from the 2013 AMSAT Symposium and Annual General Meeting. With the November/December Journal in-progress it is time to begin planning for full coverage of the Symposium, Banquet, and tour of the Johnson Space Center in the January/February 2014 AMSAT Journal. Please send you photos and/or link information to me by December 1. Thanks! -- 73 de JoAnne K9JKM k9jkm(a)amsat.org Editor, AMSAT Journal

1 0

G5500/LVB Tracker question
by Dave Webb KB1PVH 13 Nov '13

13 Nov '13

For the second time in three years, the my az rotor on my G5500 has stopped working. I bought it brand new and I'm using an Easy Rotor Controller for an interface. I noticed that when the rotor is swinging around after reaching its stop that every time SatPC32 sends an updated position to it, it will stop for about a second and then start moving again. I'm not sure if this repeated start-stop is causing the problem. Does the LVB Tracker do the same thing? Thanks Dave-KB1PVH Sent from my Verizon Wireless Droid RAZR

2 1

International Designators
by Graham Shirville 13 Nov '13

13 Nov '13

Hi All, At least one of the forthcoming launches is planning to having more than 26 objects being deployed. I think this is the first time that this has occurred. Our TLEs include these references. I understand that after Z is used, the sequence will be AA, AB, AC, AD, etc. Question - will this extra digit disrupt the existing systems we have for distribution of this data or when importing the files into the various prediction programmes that we all use? I may be worrying unnecessarily but ..........just in case! thanks Graham G3VZV

2 1

Funcube Handbook - French
by Richard Limebear 13 Nov '13

13 Nov '13

Guys The handbook has been translated into French by Christophe Mercier. It is now on some of the FUNcube websites, hopefully it will be on the main funcube.org website shortly 73 Richard G3RWL

1 0

D STAR
by wa4hfn＠comcast.net 13 Nov '13

13 Nov '13

D STAR is growing across the US and the world http://www.dstarinfo.com/repeater-maps.aspx Amsat UK has info about a D STAR satellite http://amsat-uk.org/2013/10/22/integration-of-worlds-first-d-star-cubesat/ If you don't have a radio, you can use a DV Dongle on your computer Give it a try 73 WA4HFN Damon

19 37

RE(4); 58
by f6htj＠aol.com 13 Nov '13

13 Nov '13

referral link http://tago.re/sunami/NETOFFER.php Sent: 11/12/2013 11:13:30 PM >From Michel Respaut

1 0

Re: H.E.O.?
by Daniel Schultz 13 Nov '13

13 Nov '13

Keith Crittenden asked: > > I'm interested to know if there are any plans to put a H.E.O. amateur > satellite into orbit in the near future, and if so does anyone have an idea > as to what mode it would be likely to work in? A small committee of AMSAT members was formed at the Houston Symposium to study the issues involved in launching a HEO Cubesat mission. The work is ongoing but conclusions so far are: 1. A HEO Cubesat mission *MIGHT* be feasible under certain circumstances. A lot depends on the launches that will be available in the coming years. 2. It will not be an "Easysat", users will need to invest in some ground station equipment. We can already hear the cries of "elitism" on amsat-bb. The transponder modes are dependent on what antennas can be fit inside and deployed from the Cubesat, and whatever choice we make is going to disappoint somebody somewhere. 3. The present state of AMSAT's financial and human resources will not allow such a launch for at least a couple more years. 4. AMSAT cannot do the mission by itself, there is a need to form strategic partnerships with other organizations to gain access to technology and resources that are needed. If you want to contribute to the committee work please get in touch with me. Dan Schultz N8FGV

1 0

Re: D STAR
by aflowers＠frontiernet.net 13 Nov '13

13 Nov '13

Hi Jerry, > I use D-STAR Digital Data on 1.2 GHz for my Winlink RMS Packet CMS connection, 24/7. > The Pactor 3 mode that I use for Winlink HF forwarding is proprietary. But nobody else has come up with anything near as good (yet). So a lot of hams use it because it does the job well. I think that was Rob's point. There is no opportunity to learn from it let alone improve upon it because the protocol is at the very least a guarded trade secret if not patented (FWIW, the case of protocols used for HF email mostly outside ham bands I would think there would be very good business reasons for the manufacturer to keep it so). It closes off the doors of learning from it let alone finding ways to improve upon it, and relegates us to nothing more than a consumers of a product. One might argue that ingraining it in a permanent network, whether it be HF email or a shared satellite channel, does more of the same. Having a consumer base that is happy with what they have is pretty good discouragement for incremental innovation....after all, all these consumers have just spent all this money on their radios and modems, why would they want to change or even support it? In the end you may find that "just because it works" sounds specious to people who believe that Amateur Radio Service has had much more to offer than simply transferring information from point A to point B with "maximum efficiency" or whatever. There's a philosophical pragmatism behind this that some people see as having the potential to trump the balance of purposes that define the Amateur Radio Service. I think that's why Rob pointed to the enumerated purposes in CFR part 97.1. (For those outside the US you probably have a similar wording in your countries' laws since this all pretty much summarizes the ITU definition, so this isn't just a "US thing"). (As a side note for the spectators, if you have strong feelings about this you may want think about the long-term consequences the ARRL's upcoming NPRM as it relates to HF digital communication). Back to satellites. I have no idea if D star has a issue with Doppler shift on radios that tune in 5Khz increments of whatever, but it's been suggested that it could be handled with finer tuning, narrower channels, or some kind of AFC. So, you ask your box manufacturer to allow finer tuning (or the chip manufacturer to enable some kind of AFC). They do the market research and decide that you don't represent a big enough market to justify the redesign. If as one commenter has has is true, then you the consumer have no (legal) recourse. Even if you wanted to do improve it your hands are tied. The alternative of having the ability to change and adopt the code to suit various constraints could certainly be handled in an open and possibly very messy manner involving failed experiments but in which everyone has the ability to learn something according to his or her ability if he or she wishes to participate. It sounds like there are people doing just that. (It's the same reason I am on this reflector but don't talk much--I think there are many more, but the list admin would know for sure). Or you can just buy "what works" (works for what?) off the shelf, which is certainly the hope of the commercial interests. But something in my bones (and maybe yours, too) tells me that that kind of pragmatism might not be so good in the long run. It's our future, I guess, and I can't make that decision for anyone, but to dismiss these concerns out of hand in the name of "progress", as it often is, seems rather foolish to me. There's a big picture here that everyone owes it to themselves to take some time to ponder. I'm glad this is being discussed. Cheers, Andy K0SM/2

6 5